On a related police state note. I was in Washington Square Park two days ago listening to a group of about 4 guys play very enjoyable music. A group of about 50 people gathered to listen and dance because the group was so good. The police showed up, disbanded the group and ticketed them in front of us all. The end.

OMG, I forgot the rest of the best part of the story. So, the next day I was walking down the street and was stopped by a couple (man and woman) who appeared to be about 70 years old. We were in Washington Square Park. The man said he had not been to NYC in 50 years. He was upset because he couldn't find Greenwich Village where all the artists and music and good energy used to be. I told him the police state ate it. The end.

Oh, boy, must you rile me before my first 'tini of the day?

You don't trust cops? When the mook on the 2 train is eyeing your baubles, who are you going to call? A metermaid?

Also, clue from the clue bag: the NYPD is already a paramilitary organization. You can tell by the titles, the uniforms, and the gadgets.

As for the force being problematic - human beings make mistakes. You might want to travel back in time to 1980 for a stroll around Manhattan at around 2 AM if you want to see a truly problematic NYPD - understaffed, underpaid, facing crime wave after crime wave. The city wasn't a particularly pleasant place to live and work then. Now it's a lot different.

The police are still underpaid. That's why a $50 million plan to put machine guns and bomb sniffing dogs on the subway is a clear misappropriation of funds.

Further, no one is arguing that we don't need police. I'm thankful for them. I just don't think it takes machine guns on subways to keep the all feared "mooks" in line.

Heathrow's looked like this for years, since the 80's. Sadly, you get used to it.

No kidding - the vanguard of the police state. I truly wonder who's side they'll be on when the coup d'etat occurs.

@thedecider: Sadly, you probably can't get a homeland security grant to pay for salaries

Interestingly, the Guardian reports police brutality much more often than the New York Times. (yes, I only learned that because I was forced to compare them for a class, whatever).

It's a Police State party
Who could ask fr more
Everybody's comin', leave your conscience at the door
Leave your conscience and responsibility at the door...
(don't run away or else we'll shoot)

@BettyCrocker: A total non-sequitor - crime didn't go down by having cops dressed like military personnel cradling machine guns on subway platforms. This is mosty an exercise in inurement (is that a word?), a bit of theatre in support of Ray Kelly's bid for Mayor and a bit of self-pleasuring by police brass.

@afraidofauntieem: In fact, the grants are supposed to be allocated to equipment upgrades and installations - something that would have a long-term return. That's why NYC lost out a few years ago - because the NYPD wanted to use so much of the money for overtime. But instead of being rational about it, people got all out of whack, screaming 9/11, 9/11 over and over again, so the rules were modified a bit.

@it takes a train to cry: And my last bit of screed: Shelia's arrest was due to a purposeful strategy of getting as many people as possible to have contact with the criminal justice system so all of their personal and identifying information - e.g., fingerprints - are in the system. The theory is that people who commit big crimes also commit small crimes, so make everyone go through the system because at least a few of them will commit big crimes later and the fingerprints etc. on file will make them easier to catch. Basically, we're all treated as potential murderers. And once they start collecting DNA from people who are arrested, the govt will know a lot more about us, because you can be sure they're not going to let that little treasure trove of information sit around unexpoited for whatever purposes they may have.

@thedecider: It moved to New Orleans. Srsly

@PandoraSpocks: I remember all these TV and movie images from the 60s and 70s -- the original "Mission Impossible" being the most blatant -- of military guys patrolling airports, trains stations ets carrying automatic weapons. I remember thinking "thank God we don't have that."

@PandoraSpocks: O'Hare is patrolled by cops on Segways.

@PandoraSpocks: Much of Europe has cops with machine guns all over the place. But they don't necessarily stop people from playing music in the park. There's security, and there's intimidation.

@Mike_Jahn: But as many machine guns as there are at airports and train stations (and in goverment buildings, like here in Madrid) they don't necessarily stop and harass people. They're fairly realistic about the futility of armed cops in stopping terrorism. and know that graffiti, drinking beer on a subway platform, or playing music in the park are not dangerous acts.

@BettyCrocker: You can have all the cops on the train you want, but do they have to carry M-16's? Really, isn't a single shot to the dome of your suspected rapist going to do the trick? You really need to fire 40 rounds in 15 seconds at him?

The dogs' olfactory skills- are they multi-faceted? I'm way too cocky with my weed-carrying.

Fund Tha Police

I'm sorry -- but was everybody asleep the last hmmm, I dunno, eight to ten years? The police state has been afoot for sometime. 9/11 was the bait -- that was how we got the Homeland "Security" Complex. The switch is -- from whom do you think the homeland is being secured? It's being secured from YOU.

Under the guise of protecting you from things that go boom, you will be investigated, your DNA scanned, your email will be read (is already being read) and so on. And it will all be to keep you "safe." Safe from what though? Argh. I sound like I should be wearing a tinfoil hat. But it's true, damn it!

Are we sure Giuliani isn't somehow responsible for this? It sounds like his wet dream. Except in his wet dream the troops would also be taking out high-profile targets like jaywalkers and people who own ferrets.

Sean Bell verdict coming down in...13 hours.
Hallekalua.

London may have CCTV, but we sure as hell don't have cops with machine guns and dogs patrolling the streets and subway. I can't remember ever seeing a cop on the tube, anywhere ...oh yeah, randomly stopping and searching people's bags leaving Mile End station, night after night back in February (that was fucked up).... well apart from that no doubt isolated incident, the cops here are not roided out, and are even nice, and friendly. CCTV and the odd polite stop and search aside, the US is *way* more of a police state than the UK, or anywhere in Europe. People avoid the States because of it.

I will stare directly at the ground. No eye contact. At least it will keep me alert for poop.

@SarahHeartburn: In Penn Station on Saturday nights dozens of cops watch in vague amusement while half-naked B&T kids get besotted while waiting for the trains home to mom and dad.

Whenever going into a subway station and seeing the police and their fold-out table, I think to myself "Would it be worse for me to go through with this gram of pot, or walk backwards, slo-mo style, up the stairs and go on my merry way?" And then I realize I've hidden the weed in my bra and go toward the lions. And their folding table.

@BettyCrocker: I think we can safely assume that Mike (right?) is one of the good ones.

@it takes a train to cry: @donmiguel: can you guys talk a little louder? i was distracted by the black helicopters hovering over my house.

@Mike_Jahn: Also at Penn Station, about two months ago I dropped a glove and left my wheelie cart alone while walking back three paces to get it. A cop was on me within seconds. I guess he thought my wonderful Toshiba laptop was going to blow up the building. Instead of just crash.

@Flashman: When I lived in SF right after 9/11, there were National Guard troops patrolling both ends of the Golden Gate and Bay Bridges with openly displayed machine guns, but they weren't in the city. I don't think it would have been tolerated. A handgun--at least arguably--is for deterring violence, when carried by a police officer. Machine guns are for murdering--and of course terrorizing--people.

@Mike_Jahn: At least the Penn Station cops (and I forgot to mention National Guards troops) don't give a rolling rat's ass if you drink in front of them, out of a paper back of course.

@ExecutiveIntern: You can have all the cops on the train you want, but do they have to carry M-16's? Really, isn't a single shot to the dome of your suspected rapist going to do the trick? You really need to fire 40 rounds in 15 seconds at him?

A rapist can be deterred/disabled by a good cop without firing a single shot. However, a suicide bomber needs to have his or her skull removed before they can blow themselves and Lexington Avenue up. M-16s are a lot more efficient at that, and dogs that can detect bombs are rather useful too.

As for the "police state" paranoiacs who think we live in a Linkin Park video, I think you'd find that less presence = more crime. Instead of being all afwaid of da big bad cops, try saying "Hi!", or maybe even "Thank you!". It's appreciated more than you know.

Ooh it gets better. Smart, networked cameras face scanning everyone in lower Manhattan. [www.wired.com]

The machine guns I've actually been desensitized to. I remember them from times in Paris during the 90s. I just hope rich drunk and business drunk are still ok.

@lawyergay: We can and do. Funny stories upon request.

@intothelight: Haha, point taken. Right after 9/11, which I spent in DC, it was kind of frickin scary -- the plane, or whatever it was, had just hit the Pentagon. There was a feeling that anything could happen and I lived near the Naval Observatory in Glover Park. And then, like it was a dream, four or five F-16s did a fly-over and it was awesome. You could hear cheers going up all over the place.

Yeah. Then we found out that, hey, bla bla maybe "they" knew in advance that 9/11 might go down, maybe that "plane" that hit the Pentagon was a missile -- and now I have heavily armored dudes on the subway, DNA swabbing if I get arrested and rice hoarding at Wal-Mart. Okay. Kennedy frickin killed himself with Oswald's magic bullet. Colin Powell was RIGHT about the yellow cake uranium. Dubya won the election and nothing weird happened.

But surely, you'll admit, things are being slowly tightened up on us. It's not like the scenarios we all joked about in 1984 etc happened all at once. It's like crabs in boiling water -- they do it a little bit at a time. Shite, with the industrial strength comedy and sarcasm we all have, the police state will happen and we'll be too busy trying to be arch to notice. Can anyone tell I need a drink?

I accidentally brought a box cutter with me to Jamaica. There was no problem leaving the states with a box-cutter.

The Jamaican security lady sure did get mad at me when I was trying to re-enter the States though. I assured her, I forgot I even had it with me. She didn't care.

@BettyCrocker: I am thankful we live in a safe city. I am thankful for the police who are part of the reason for that.

I, however, do not think that we are protecting the city when we ticket people for playing music in a park, arrest people for putting their feet on the seat in the subway or arrest people (which means you go to JAIL!) for riding their bikes on the sidewalk. That is a police state. Like it or not.

I think you're missing the point. This isn't about the police. It's about the people making $50 million decisions to equip the subways with machine guns. As was mentioned earlier, cops have guns. A cop who can't shoot a terrorist with the semiautomatic handguns they already carry probably won't have much luck with a machine gun either.

This is about intimidation. Those guns (machine guns on the subway that is) serve no other purpose but to remind you who is in control. And, that you should be scared and thankful that the government is protecting you. While they do that with one hand, they'll be robbing you of the fundamental civil rights and civil liberties that make this country great with the other.

@BettyCrocker: "You might want to travel back in time to 1980 for a stroll around Manhattan at around 2 AM if you want to see a truly problematic NYPD - understaffed, underpaid, facing crime wave after crime wave. The city wasn't a particularly pleasant place
to live and work then. Now it's a lot different." 2 AM, howso about ummm 2 PM!!!!!!

And then there is the NYPD counter-intelligence unit, said to be better than the CIA, etc. Formed after the federal goverment completely and utterly abandoned NYC after 9/11. Thanks Ray Kelly and NYPD.

I should add that I totally freak out at seeing anyone with a machine gun. Ummm the 34th St. entrance to Penn Station freaksssss me out. However, this liberal understands the necessity.

LINK [www.newsweek.com]

Here is a better article. AND GIVE THE FREAKING COPS A RAISE GODDAMMIT!!!!!!!

[www.washingtonpost.com]

@thedecider: I agree with you, mostly. See, cops do have a certain measure of discretion about who to arrest... except when they don't. They - like any other enforcement agency - sometimes have to do sweeps, where anyone they see doing a particular thing gets locked up. (Sorry, Sheila, but I think that's what happened to you.) That isn't their decision - it comes from the City Council, usually. They would be the ones to complain to.

Maybe it's just my mindset and experience, but seeing cops on the trains or in the street doesn't bother or intimidate me in any way - I view them as a resource I can count on if the world goes to shit rather quickly (9/11, 2003 blackout, flooded subway, etc.). In each of those cases, I was assisted in some way by an officer, and I made sure to thank them.

I guess it comes down to who sets policy and how, rather than the NYPD itself, as you suggest.

@BettyCrocker: I think this is a completely alarmist move, but the actual cop who will stand there with the M16 is just doing his job. It's like supporting the troops but not believing GWB's bullshit. This feeds on itself.

Anyway at least you guys don't have the Atlanta problem where the f*cking state legislature is encouraging citizens to carry guns on public transportation, state parks and restaurants that serve alcohol. ([www.11alive.com])
In Georgia, where the rednecks roam freely.
Would some dumbf*ck buy my house already? The house is great, I only mean dumbf*ck in the sense of who the hell wants to live here? (Just to answer that question on my own part, it's all part of my evil plot to slowly lure one genetic sport OUT of Georgia.)

everyone's doing great work today. this issue is too loaded, and too rankling, for me to comment on quickly. so, later, at some point.

but for the moment, Pareene (invigorating post, by the way), could the header, or whatever you call it, for this not just be a straight out, "9/11 is a Joke," in reference to my oneliner on these premises, and ensuing poem, I believe, last 9/11? or is that narrowing the focus too much? perhaps I'm being selfindulgent, but your use of the phrase echoed mine, and I was feeling some pride.

@BettyCrocker: You get up early!

Yes, I think we agree. I certainly don't blame the police. From my earlier post: This isn't about the police. It's about the people making $50 million decisions to equip the subways with machine guns.

Thank you for your politeness. Glad we could work things out. You have earned that star!

@Flashman: The first time I ever saw a machine gun (in person) was when I got off the plane in Frankfurt. This was pre-9/11.

@dogisdead: Same here. Only now, there will be dogs.
Gah.

@BettyCrocker: wait, i'm late to this party, but generally i don't call ANYONE, metermaid or cop, for someone "eyeing". maybe i'd consider calling batman but that's about it.

also, an m16 is no more likely to deter a suicide bomber than, like, i dunno, an attack alpaca so there's not really much of a point to this, it's a misappropriation of funds and doesn't actually address the problem homeland security is supposedly here to fix.

^^^ this statement of course makes the assumption that anyone thinks homeland security exists to thwart terrorists, which it doesn't, it exists to further the police state. this is not paranoid liberal ranting; i was married to someone who worked for homeland security AND BOY WOULD HE NOT EVER SHUT UP EVER ABOUT IT (we are no longer married)

@Itsjustcatnip: You'd rather the otherwise unemployable meatheads who make up the bulk of your local law enforcement authority be the only ones with legal guns?

@rdc: I'd rather no one carried them on the street, including cops. I'm in the minority, but it works better in Britain.
Also it means that the cops will have to operate on a more trigger happy basis, because for all they know everyone is carrying (legally).

Please, to understand why it's a bit ridiculous and offensive to call NYC a police state, spend some time in Pyongyang or talk to some Tibetan ex-pats.

@donmiguel: A good friend of mine applied for a high up fed. job and during an interview, they pulled up less than patriotic IM conversations he'd had 5 or 6 years earlier. This happened well before 9/11. Domestic spying is as old as spying itself. Sad but true.

@Claystil: You can always point to more severe examples. That doesn't make it right. Argue on the merits.

@Claystil: We shouldn't measure ourselves against the least-free societies, but the most.

@thedecider:
I agree. I don't think it's right, but I also think the idiomatic abuse of "police state" is out of hand. Some people seem to be confused about what a police state actually is and then start forgetting how easy it is to ignore cops with larger than usual weapons. taking a look at North Korea puts things in perspective.

@it takes a train to cry: Calling "police state!" is itself an act of comparison to the least free societies.