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Is $9 Trillion a Lot of Debt?
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Trai_Dep
08/26/09

In reply to Is $9 Trillion a Lot of Debt?
Debt alone is simply a datapoint, largely meaningless. Debt to GNP provides some context.
For instance, Krugman points out:
"It’s bad, but it’s not horrific either by historical or international standards. [Federal] debt hit 109% of GDP at the end of World War II...and a number of European countries have hit substantially higher debt levels without crisis."
Not to make light of it, but considering the smoking corpse that the Free Market Fundamentalists left us with at the end of 2008, not unreasonable.
Slash a couple Pentagon programs, get us out of Iraq and return to Reagan's second term taxes on the uber-rich, and we're back on track.
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meechybee
08/26/09

In reply to Is $9 Trillion a Lot of Debt?
The only reason we outlasted the Soviet Union is that we were able to out-spend them. This lesson was not lost on the Islamists in Afghanistan (which was fighting the USSR-backed government until the USSR's implosion).

So it comes as no surprise to me that when the Taliban and Al Qaeda create mischief, they know we'll respond with a borderline, and very costly, overreaction — throwing money at the problem to make it go away. If they can keep up the pressure long enough, we'll spend ourselves into ruin (just like the USSR). (Before I get blasted for not supporting the troops — I am a huge supporter of our military, but I think they've been ill-used in this fight.)

They set off a $20 IED. We counter-punch with a $400,000 smart bomb.

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are approaching a Trillion dollars on their own — a figure which does not include our involvement in other hotspots around the world and "foreign aid" to keep the quiet in other troublesome countries.

There's no conclusion or snark here (sorry), except to say that the headline of the NY Times on 9-11 was about how to spend the Social Security surplus left by the Clinton administration. I've saved that copy — if only just to remember that a balanced budget was real, once upon a time. I need a drink.
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SidAndFinancy promoted this comment Edited by meechybee at 08/26/09 1:46 PM meechybee was starred meechybee was unstarred

lobstr
08/26/09

In reply to Is $9 Trillion a Lot of Debt?
A stack of $1,000 bills to equal $9 trillion would be 611 miles high—higher than the Eiffel Tower.

hm. theres not a building on Earth that is even taller than a third of a mile, so I'm guessing that would be feet? :[] ..
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gawkimo
08/26/09

In reply to Is $9 Trillion a Lot of Debt?
That's really interesting that the New York Times says that because Ted Martinez was laid off he couldn't get his dental insurance to cover implants. It interesting because I've never seen a dental plan that covers implants in the first place! Implants are considered "cosmetic" and in the 12 or so dental plans I've had in my career, not one of them covered implants.
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Pope John Peeps II
08/26/09

@gawkimo: Don't health plans in America cover some of the cost of cosmetic procedures?
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gawkimo
08/26/09

@Pope John Peeps II: As far as I can tell it has to be deemed "medically necessary", which is very difficult.

I assume (though am not sure) there are plans that cover "cosmetic" but I bet most people couldn't afford the premiums for those plans.

Health plans probably cover cosmetic skin grafts if you are burned or something, but implants and crowns? I've never heard of a dental plan that covers that. I had to save up $4,000 (after some crackhead near NYU knocked out my tooth trying to steal my bike) because my first dental plan said "it's cosmetic, we don't cover that" and my second one said "it's a pre existing condition AND it's cosmetic, and we cover neither of those."

What many plans cover is bridges. But bridges, as you know, file down healthy teeth in order to set the bridge. You'd have to be friggin' nuts to get a bridge -- that's like dental care from the 1920s.
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badasscat
08/26/09

In reply to Is $9 Trillion a Lot of Debt?
It's worth pointing out, though, that in this age where we reject the black and white and accept nuance, that the debt as a percentage of the GDP will still be less, even at $9 trillion, than it was at the end of WWII. And we worked our way out of that. All it takes is a little Amuhrican "can-do" spirit and some good ol' fashioned elbow grease!
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Niko Bellic
08/26/09

In reply to Is $9 Trillion a Lot of Debt?
So where did we get these 9 trillion dollars from anyway? The neighboring galaxies?
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TheRtHonPM
08/26/09

@Niko Bellic: As I understand it, we're getting the money from China and the Saudis. They're giving it to us so that we can send it back to them when we buy their cheap plastic shit and oil, respectively.

There's something really wrong with that in a way that my feeble non-economic brain can't quite put its finger on. It's kind of the same feeling I had a couple of years ago when I went to my bank for a loan, and they didn't ask me a thing about my job or income. Oh well, I'm sure everyone's learned their lesson, right?
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badasscat
08/26/09

@Niko Bellic: The government is, luckily, the only institution in the country allowed to print money.
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TruthBeTold
08/26/09

@badasscat: Actually the government,, meaning congress was supposed to be the only institution able to print our money. That right was however for some batshit crazy reason given solely to the Federal Reserve. Which is in fact not a government institution contrary to what about 99.9% of people apparently think. It is a private corporation owned by private companies,, in fact many being the banks that it regulates. So we gave the Fed and only the Fed the right to print our money. Which they are then kind enough to loan back to us at interest. The Fed has never been audited in it's entire existence and congress has no real over sight at this point or has ever, over this private corporation which loans us our own money.
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Unsolicited Advice
08/26/09

@Niko Bellic:

Predominately? Domestic investors.

[en.wikipedia.org]

The largest supply of foreign investment in the US comes from China, and they have some 776 billion.

[www.treas.gov]
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NotChoinski
08/26/09

@TruthBeTold: "congress was supposed to be the only institution able to print our money. That right was however for some batshit crazy reason given solely to the Federal Reserve"

Um, considering Congress has previously been known for any number of cravenly political decisions (Terry Schaivo, anyone?) the Federal Reserve - made up of recognized, vetted experts - SHOULD be the ones making sober, critical descisions regarding a rather critical sector of our society. You don't have to agree with them, and you can make a reasoned counter-argument, or reform, but you shouldn't just hand it over to a body of 438 people with limited terms or myopic ideology.
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Paul_Is_Drunk
08/26/09

@Niko Bellic: A solid 1/3rd of it comes from domestic investors. (i.e. If you own a government bond, you own part of the national debt). A great deal more than a 1/3rd of it comes from the government itself, or intragovernmental debt. And finally, a less than a 1/3 comes from other countries, of which Japan was the leader until recently.

That's why when you hear people say "China owns all our debt!" they're idiots who just repeat what they hear on the news. China owns less than 1/10th of our debt. Same for Japan, but Japan's not as scary. Brits come in 3rd, in case you're curious.

But, yeah, it's mostly Americans and our own government. Kind of like when you tell yourself, "Okay, I can spend this $200 now, but I need to put in some overtime next week to make up for it." Except next week is 10 years from now and someone else is in office.
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Trai_Dep
08/26/09

@Paul_Is_Drunk: An awesome breakdown and a very good point. Tip of the hat, sir!
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gabrielsong
08/26/09

In reply to Is $9 Trillion a Lot of Debt?
So, the Eiffel is only 610 miles high?
-that's high!
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Trai_Dep
08/26/09

@gabrielsong: Yet French women insist 420 miles is a more accurate figure.
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Cheap Shot
06/04/09

In reply to Bars Too Cool For You
The Shank. Now that's a place.
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Mama Penguino
06/04/09

In reply to Bars Too Cool For You
When I was a sweet young thing of 19, I dropped out of college and moved to a cold-water flat in London to become a famous writer and immediately found an angst-ridden boyfriend from the poor side of town (well, one of them, anyway). He used to take me to a small diner at the end of Harrow Road where we would sip a glass of juice and then make our way through the back, out the back door, through a small alley, and into a super-secret club where we could smoke hash and slow-dance to strange music. The really sad part of it all was my desire to just get to a nice, clean place where I could have a cup of coffee and talk. Mismatched, Inc. Not everyone is looking for cool.
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skahammer
06/04/09

@Mama Penguino: What a charming vignette. Please tell me that at the relationship's end, someone was left out in the rain, shouting the other's name while tears streamed down and vanished into the puddles in the street.
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Mama Penguino
06/05/09

@skahammer: Pretty close. His brother committed suicide and he went a little crazy. I went home eventually and married the Kansas farm-boy years later and London boy called my mom's house out of the blue one day simply to see how I was and my mom said, "She's married" and hung up the phone.
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Silverbackne
06/04/09

In reply to Bars Too Cool For You
I hang out in a place that's sorta like this. You have to walk through a liquor store to get to the lounge in back.
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contains_hot_liquid
06/04/09

@Silverbackne: Just like the place I go to! But there you have to drink your way through a liquor bottle to get to the floor at the bottom. ... Sigh.
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MrInBetween
06/04/09

In reply to Bars Too Cool For You
The ultimate in speakeasy mystification is PDU (Please Don't Urinate). Patrons have to enter through the back door of an East Side Jamba Juice, a juice joint, then step into a men's room and identify themselves by speaking into the handle of the urinal closest to the window. A buzzer opens a secret door, revealing a strange, twilight world where artisanal cocktails are consumed under the watchful eyes of hipsters who do not anyone to use (or even see) the (apparently very plush) restroom facilities.
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a boy and his dog
06/04/09

In reply to Bars Too Cool For You
I thought St. Mark's Place was where you hung out only until you were old enough to drink.
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HiredGoons
06/04/09

@a boy and his dog: it is the Food Court of Manhattan, isn't it.
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City_Dater
06/04/09

@HiredGoons:

Complete with skateboards and self-conscious teen girls in half shirts.
The return of '80s fashion made St. Marks into three blocks of John Hughes movie/sad high school flashback.
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HiredGoons
06/04/09

@City_Dater: it's basically one big Hot Topic, it is.
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kneetoe
06/04/09

In reply to Bars Too Cool For You
Also, at first I thought you were talking about the ones who turn the air conditioner up too high--I hate those places.
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contains_hot_liquid
06/04/09

@kneetoe: @foofybunny: Is that an actual quote from the movie or something? How oddly self-reflexive.
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contains_hot_liquid
06/04/09

@contains_hot_liquid: Woah. That went into the wrong thread. Whoops.
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contains_hot_liquid
06/04/09

In reply to Bars Too Cool For You
This "trend" is currently taking root here in the Midwest. Which is strange, I think, because it's not like the actual real bars are overflowing with tourists.
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Cecil's Wielder
06/04/09

@contains_hot_liquid: I went to a place in Chicago called The Key Club on Christmas Eve a few years ago. I'm not sure what the saddest part of the whole experience was.
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HiredGoons
06/04/09

@Cecil's Wielder: no Key Party?
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contains_hot_liquid
06/04/09

It's like: if I wanted to hang out in a place that had the ambience of my apartment, I would have stayed there. Also, there were more people in my apartment. And also, the tips were better.
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Mama Penguino
06/04/09

@contains_hot_liquid: I agree that these trends never seem to play out correctly in the Midwest, although Chicago is hot stuff all on its own in my book.
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contains_hot_liquid
06/04/09

@Mama Penguino: Quite true. But I am in Kansas City, which is decidedly not Chicago.
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Mama Penguino
06/04/09

@contains_hot_liquid: No, but Kansas City is pretty sweet for the Midwest. I used to live in OP, which was not that sweet, but I still miss East Side Cafe.
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contains_hot_liquid
06/04/09

@Mama Penguino: No OP is not sweet. Actually one of the things I like about KC is that basically EVERYTHING worth doing has to be sought out, or you have to know someone who knows about it. There are basically two cultures here, and the interesting one is hidden away from daylight.
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Mama Penguino
06/04/09

@contains_hot_liquid: I worked at the Borders on 91st & Metcalf right after it first opened and was a great place to be. All the cool kids there shopped in Brookside, lived in Hyde Park or Waldo, and drank at Cabaret on Main. We used to go to the gay disco down by the Folger's plant where you could smell fresh coffee at 2 a.m. Still, I'm far from cool, but it was a good time.
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contains_hot_liquid
06/04/09

@Mama Penguino: I lived above that disco for a year.
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Mama Penguino
06/04/09

@stanhalen: I don't think so, Stan. If you just do what you enjoy doing, and go where you have fun being, I think there's authenticity in that. It's self-consciousness that ruins everything; the key is moving beyond that. You seem pretty authentically sweet to me!
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SarahHeartburn
06/04/09

In reply to Bars Too Cool For You
To sum up: steampunk snobbery.
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contains_hot_liquid
06/04/09

@SarahHeartburn: I do believe that is half the fun of steampunkery.
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blix
06/04/09

@SarahHeartburn: Tis truly a Diamond Age in which we live.
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