As we move toward a society where all media is digital, and all computer functionality is web-based, I get more and more scared that something will make the satellites fall out of the sky, and we will be back to the stone age.
One hacker will be all it takes to delete forever the words of Shakespeare from our digital library of congress. People, hold onto your books, records, and vhs tapes. I'll hold onto my tin foil hat.
If it was really piddly why would flickr bother with the pictures or closing down insignificant 'bitchy' discussion, and we certainly would be discussing this.That's a huge paradox and the real irony of those who seek to diminish these incidents.
Obvously flickr is a private entity and under no legal obligation to support or promote anything, they are free to be despots and tyrants but then how many folks would support a company of this nature.
The big elephant in the room here is that Yahoo as a company has issues with free speech and they should be open about it. The hypocrisy of claiming to support free discussion and closing down discussion at the same time is spectacularly silly.
Yahoo gave up a blogger to the Chinese government so all these issue ultimately tie back to issues of free speech, freedom and democracy so one can choose to be blase about it but please let not pretend its business as usual.
Yahoo, Google and Microsoft have all collaborated with the Chinese government to limit freedom, and this cannot be a good thing.
@LouiseGoolay: Apparently a lot of folks will support a company of this nature.
I think you have a great point about Yahoo's dealings in China, but to act like they're in any way connected to Flickr taking down some pictures and ending discussion threads kind of trivializes that in a way that's not too appealing.
About China: it would seem that that type of thing actually is "business as usual," if you want to tap into the Chinese market. I can assure you that Yahoo and Google, in particular, are not in that market otherwise. It's either play ball with the government and you're in, or resist the government and you're out. Breaching ethical boundaries in return for access to huge markets isn't exactly new territory for corporations.
I didn't know it was "blase" to not be absolutely shocked or make exaggerated claims about the broad significance of piddly things like Flickr removing a picture that, quite honestly, should have been removed anyway, or shutting down threads full of bitching about it. As usual, leave it to the bored-as-hell, reactionary internet masses to complain that their constitutional rights are under attack simply because Flickr won't let the put up any old picture they want.
Whao, that's audacious! Free speech is clearly an alien concept to you, incase you didn't realise its not a privilege provided by kindly souls, is a right and when denied there better be a good explanation unless you are in Iran or Saudi Arabia or something.
If flickr wants to be a censoring overlord then why provide forum discussion or in that case photo services, let them tell their customers if we don't approve of your photos, according to not some well defined parameters but arbitrary judgement we will delete them. This sort of small mindedness and petty tyranny cannot suit any free system.
@LouiseGoolay: Flickr censoring speech on its site doesn't = first amendment violation. I think the problem is more that people have come to believe that they are participating in "free systems" just because these systems are on the internet, when in actuality they have been subject to moderation from the outset.
I'm unclear on how flickr is a competiton to facebook? they seem to fufill very different purposes - maybe it's just the people I know, but facebook seems to be more geared to content you locate elsewhere, not so much for your own photos (not mainly) - it's like a networked blog you make for you friends
@MncinglyWhordL'mer: There's absolutely no competition between the two services whatsoever. The types of semi-pro and pro photographers and bloggers and artists that are paying $30 a year to have unlimited flickr accounts are not going to turn around and start loading their pictures all up to Facebook any goddamn day of the week. Facebook's photo app is for loading up pictures of cats and tagging them as your friends for jokes, or for the type of people who take their crappy digicam to every bar and party and snap a thousand blurry photos of their drunk friends -- it's a completely different concept from what flickr does (or purports to do, at least). That's exactly the line that stood out to me too!
@MncinglyWhordL'mer: It's simple: More pictures have been uploaded to Facebook than to Flickr, by something like 3x (I've given stats in another post). Facebook is in many ways a superior platform for non-pro photographers -- the scrolling through pics is superior (they have some wicked good caching algorithm that Flickr lacks), and you can tag pictures with people's actual Facebook identities, instead of guessing at what tag might correspond to their identity as on Flickr.
For serious photogs like @allyzay, there might not be any comparison. Maybe Flickr could own that niche but their userbase -- even the paid userbase -- is for casual photographers, by which I mean people more interested in sharing pictures socially than any other purpose.
@allyzay: Semi-pro and better are not going to go Facebook any time soon, it's true, but Yahoo does not own Flickr to cater to a niche audience. I do think Facebook is their competition as far as the suits there are concerned. Been meaning to write a longer post on this. But pictures uploaded to Facebook simply get seen by far more people, for your average user, than the same pic on Flickr. And ubiquity has a way of trumping quality long term.
@Ryan Tate: Actually, I don't think Flickr's paid user base can be described as "casual." They're definitely more along the lines of "enthusiast." They like to talk about photography and comment on photography. Most of the pictures on Facebook are of people mugging for the camera on vacations and whatnot. Most of the pictures on paid Flickr accounts are actual attempts at photography.
@skt.smth: Maybe. I'm judging mainly on the basis of myself and friends/contacts I know who have Flickr accounts. When I signed up, you needed a Pro level to upload any significant quantity of photos, I think they've made the standard accounts more capable since then.
What can I say? Some censorship is good. In any case, Flickr doesn't exist in order to promote free speech. They can take down whatever they want, and you can take your dollars (and data) wherever you want.
@takeouteurotrash: What's rich? The fact that Flickr is under no obligation to let people post whatever the hell they want, and that it obviously hasn't been given any clear sign that its users really give a crap either way?
Particularly when it censors information that doesn't fit within your (noticeably) infantile political philosophy. That's what's rich.
Before you read the information below (which I'm sure will just, like, totally exhaust you) I realize that yahoo! has absolute power to delete anything it desires. However, this activity (particularly regarding the information posted above, by Ryan Tate) runs quite parallel to companies and citizens censoring any disparaging speech directed towards Senor Fuck- Bag Bush shortly after that fateful day in September, 8 long years ago (and continuing through 2005).
Deleting customer accounts due to subject matter(s) not coinciding with your, or a company's, political values is obtuse, at best. You're intellectually shallow.
"You understand that all information, data, text, software, music, sound, photographs, graphics, video, messages, tags, or other materials ("Content"), whether publicly posted or privately transmitted, are the sole responsibility of the person from whom such Content originated. This means that you, and not Yahoo!, are entirely responsible for all Content that you upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available via the Yahoo! Services. Yahoo! does not control the Content posted via the Yahoo! Services and, as such, does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity or quality of such Content. You understand that by using the Yahoo! Services, you may be exposed to Content that is offensive, indecent or objectionable. Under no circumstances will Yahoo! be liable in any way for any Content, including, but not limited to, any errors or omissions in any Content, or any loss or damage of any kind incurred as a result of the use of any Content posted, emailed, transmitted or otherwise made available via the Yahoo! Services."
Also: "You agree to not use the Yahoo! Services to:
1.
upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;
2.
harm minors in any way;
3.
impersonate any person or entity, including, but not limited to, a Yahoo! official, forum leader, guide or host, or falsely state or otherwise misrepresent your affiliation with a person or entity;
4.
forge headers or otherwise manipulate identifiers in order to disguise the origin of any Content transmitted through the Yahoo! Service;
5.
upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that you do not have a right to make available under any law or under contractual or fiduciary relationships (such as inside information, proprietary and confidential information learned or disclosed as part of employment relationships or under nondisclosure agreements);
6.
upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other proprietary rights ("Rights") of any party;
7.
upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation, except in those areas (such as shopping) that are designated for such purpose (please read our complete Spam Policy);
8.
upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any material that contains software viruses or any other computer code, files or programs designed to interrupt, destroy or limit the functionality of any computer software or hardware or telecommunications equipment;
9.
disrupt the normal flow of dialogue, cause a screen to "scroll" faster than other users of the Yahoo! Services are able to type, or otherwise act in a manner that negatively affects other users' ability to engage in real time exchanges;
10.
interfere with or disrupt the Yahoo! Services or servers or networks connected to the Yahoo! Services, or disobey any requirements, procedures, policies or regulations of networks connected to the Yahoo! Services, including using any device, software or routine to bypass our robot exclusion headers;
11.
intentionally or unintentionally violate any applicable local, state, national or international law, including, but not limited to, regulations promulgated by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, any rules of any national or other securities exchange, including, without limitation, the New York Stock Exchange, the American Stock Exchange or the NASDAQ, and any regulations having the force of law;
12.
provide material support or resources (or to conceal or disguise the nature, location, source, or ownership of material support or resources) to any organization(s) designated by the United States government as a foreign terrorist organization pursuant to section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act;
13.
"stalk" or otherwise harass another; and/or
14.
collect or store personal data about other users in connection with the prohibited conduct and activities set forth in paragraphs a through m above."
@takeouteurotrash: Here's the issue. If we're talking about the government censoring your stupid Obama as Heath Ledger's Joker picture, I'll stand up and defend your freedom of speech, because your constitutional rights actually bear on that situation. If, on the other hand, you put that same picture on Flickr and it gets removed, if I don't agree with your politics (and I fucking don't!) then why the hell should I stand up for you? It's not a constitutional concern, and I fucking hate your politics. There really is nothing compelling me to stand up in your defense.
@skt.smth: New verse, same as the first: "Deleting customer accounts due to subject matter(s) not coinciding with your, or a company's, political values is obtuse, at best. You're intellectually shallow."
Censorship is admitting defeat. If you honestly see yahoo! in a positive light after all this, then your opinions are just as vapid as I suspected. It doesn't have to do with personal taste, it has to do with a company deleting your account because they don't agree with your politics. Again, intellectually shallow.
09/15/09
09/15/09
One hacker will be all it takes to delete forever the words of Shakespeare from our digital library of congress. People, hold onto your books, records, and vhs tapes. I'll hold onto my tin foil hat.
09/15/09
09/15/09
/b/ is going to love this.
09/15/09
08/25/09
08/26/09
08/25/09
The big elephant in the room here is that Yahoo as a company has issues with free speech and they should be open about it. The hypocrisy of claiming to support free discussion and closing down discussion at the same time is spectacularly silly.
Yahoo gave up a blogger to the Chinese government so all these issue ultimately tie back to issues of free speech, freedom and democracy so one can choose to be blase about it but please let not pretend its business as usual.
Yahoo, Google and Microsoft have all collaborated with the Chinese government to limit freedom, and this cannot be a good thing.
08/25/09
I think you have a great point about Yahoo's dealings in China, but to act like they're in any way connected to Flickr taking down some pictures and ending discussion threads kind of trivializes that in a way that's not too appealing.
About China: it would seem that that type of thing actually is "business as usual," if you want to tap into the Chinese market. I can assure you that Yahoo and Google, in particular, are not in that market otherwise. It's either play ball with the government and you're in, or resist the government and you're out. Breaching ethical boundaries in return for access to huge markets isn't exactly new territory for corporations.
I didn't know it was "blase" to not be absolutely shocked or make exaggerated claims about the broad significance of piddly things like Flickr removing a picture that, quite honestly, should have been removed anyway, or shutting down threads full of bitching about it. As usual, leave it to the bored-as-hell, reactionary internet masses to complain that their constitutional rights are under attack simply because Flickr won't let the put up any old picture they want.
08/25/09
If flickr wants to be a censoring overlord then why provide forum discussion or in that case photo services, let them tell their customers if we don't approve of your photos, according to not some well defined parameters but arbitrary judgement we will delete them. This sort of small mindedness and petty tyranny cannot suit any free system.
08/25/09
08/25/09
08/25/09
08/25/09
For serious photogs like @allyzay, there might not be any comparison. Maybe Flickr could own that niche but their userbase -- even the paid userbase -- is for casual photographers, by which I mean people more interested in sharing pictures socially than any other purpose.
08/25/09
08/26/09
08/26/09
08/25/09
08/25/09
08/25/09
08/25/09
Particularly when it censors information that doesn't fit within your (noticeably) infantile political philosophy. That's what's rich.
Before you read the information below (which I'm sure will just, like, totally exhaust you) I realize that yahoo! has absolute power to delete anything it desires. However, this activity (particularly regarding the information posted above, by Ryan Tate) runs quite parallel to companies and citizens censoring any disparaging speech directed towards Senor Fuck- Bag Bush shortly after that fateful day in September, 8 long years ago (and continuing through 2005).
Deleting customer accounts due to subject matter(s) not coinciding with your, or a company's, political values is obtuse, at best. You're intellectually shallow.
"You understand that all information, data, text, software, music, sound, photographs, graphics, video, messages, tags, or other materials ("Content"), whether publicly posted or privately transmitted, are the sole responsibility of the person from whom such Content originated. This means that you, and not Yahoo!, are entirely responsible for all Content that you upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available via the Yahoo! Services. Yahoo! does not control the Content posted via the Yahoo! Services and, as such, does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity or quality of such Content. You understand that by using the Yahoo! Services, you may be exposed to Content that is offensive, indecent or objectionable. Under no circumstances will Yahoo! be liable in any way for any Content, including, but not limited to, any errors or omissions in any Content, or any loss or damage of any kind incurred as a result of the use of any Content posted, emailed, transmitted or otherwise made available via the Yahoo! Services."
Also: "You agree to not use the Yahoo! Services to:
1.
upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;
2.
harm minors in any way;
3.
impersonate any person or entity, including, but not limited to, a Yahoo! official, forum leader, guide or host, or falsely state or otherwise misrepresent your affiliation with a person or entity;
4.
forge headers or otherwise manipulate identifiers in order to disguise the origin of any Content transmitted through the Yahoo! Service;
5.
upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that you do not have a right to make available under any law or under contractual or fiduciary relationships (such as inside information, proprietary and confidential information learned or disclosed as part of employment relationships or under nondisclosure agreements);
6.
upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other proprietary rights ("Rights") of any party;
7.
upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation, except in those areas (such as shopping) that are designated for such purpose (please read our complete Spam Policy);
8.
upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any material that contains software viruses or any other computer code, files or programs designed to interrupt, destroy or limit the functionality of any computer software or hardware or telecommunications equipment;
9.
disrupt the normal flow of dialogue, cause a screen to "scroll" faster than other users of the Yahoo! Services are able to type, or otherwise act in a manner that negatively affects other users' ability to engage in real time exchanges;
10.
interfere with or disrupt the Yahoo! Services or servers or networks connected to the Yahoo! Services, or disobey any requirements, procedures, policies or regulations of networks connected to the Yahoo! Services, including using any device, software or routine to bypass our robot exclusion headers;
11.
intentionally or unintentionally violate any applicable local, state, national or international law, including, but not limited to, regulations promulgated by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, any rules of any national or other securities exchange, including, without limitation, the New York Stock Exchange, the American Stock Exchange or the NASDAQ, and any regulations having the force of law;
12.
provide material support or resources (or to conceal or disguise the nature, location, source, or ownership of material support or resources) to any organization(s) designated by the United States government as a foreign terrorist organization pursuant to section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act;
13.
"stalk" or otherwise harass another; and/or
14.
collect or store personal data about other users in connection with the prohibited conduct and activities set forth in paragraphs a through m above."
08/26/09
08/26/09
Censorship is admitting defeat. If you honestly see yahoo! in a positive light after all this, then your opinions are just as vapid as I suspected. It doesn't have to do with personal taste, it has to do with a company deleting your account because they don't agree with your politics. Again, intellectually shallow.
Thanks for contributing.