• Profile logout login

#conventionalwisdom#discussed

Gawker

Share Cancel
   
Upload an image | Add an image URL
×

logging in
  • FAQ. Include # before tag:
  • #tips,
  • #stalker,
  • #opencaption,
  • #internalmemos,
  • etc.

New York, 6:54 PM
Thu Dec 17
60 posts in the last 24 hours

Team

Tip Your Editors:

Tipline: 646-214-8138

Editor-in-Chief:
Gabriel Snyder |

West Coast Editor:
Richard Rushfield |

Contributing Editors:

Valleywag:
Ryan Tate |

Media:
Hamilton Nolan |

Politics:
Alex Pareene |

Investigations:
John Cook |

Entertainment:
Brian Moylan |

Nights:
Adrian Chen |
Azaria Jagger |
Ravi Somaiya |

Weekends:
Foster Kamer |

Video Editor:
Richard Blakeley |

SUBSCRIBE TO Gawker RSS

New: Breaking news and daily top stories via email
4260 Subscribers
Gawker
  • Your version of Internet Explorer is not supported. Please upgrade to the most recent version in order to view comments.

    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of Tremonius Tremonius
    10/23/09

    In reply to Freakonomics Has Always Been Dumb
    They reported in the earlier book how neither Ghoulyanni nor his boy Kerik saved Manhattan from crime forever; it was all due to the simple expedient of abortions available to black mothers. (They euphemized as "single mothers living up beyond 120th St.")

    The logic is, if you don't birth criminals, they won't be out on the street causing trouble.

    I never saw any comments on the proposition so I guess everybody agrees. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Tremonius was starred Tremonius was unstarred
    Image of apod78 apod78
    10/24/09

    @Tremonius: The phrase "correlation does not imply causation" always comes to mind when I think of that claim. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Solomon Grundy approved this comment apod78 was starred apod78 was unstarred
    Image of Solomon Grundy Solomon Grundy
    10/25/09

    @apod78: That would be the big ol' stick with which to whack most of the book's arguments. My only defense of the authors is that I actually do think they understand this and are just being playful. But it's easy for the general audience to misread. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Solomon Grundy was starred Solomon Grundy was unstarred
    Image of Solomon Grundy Solomon Grundy
    10/23/09

    In reply to Freakonomics Has Always Been Dumb
    One of my pet peeves is when people dub those they disagree with some variation of stupid, when in fact intelligence is not the issue in play. This interaction is almost unavoidable when discussing politics with people who don't know very much about politics -- "can you believe they [take some position that not everyone agrees with]? Idiots, like I always said! The world is full of idiots."

    While it is true by definition that people of above-average intelligence are a minority, the people saying this are usually not part of that minority. Very smart people can sometimes be wrong, yet they remain very smart. More pertinently, this interaction is usually between parties who are both completely average. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Solomon Grundy was starred Solomon Grundy was unstarred
    Image of Motoko Kusanagi Motoko Kusanagi
    10/23/09

    @Solomon Grundy: The fact that you premise your argument on some universal concept of intelligence says a lot. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Motoko Kusanagi was starred Motoko Kusanagi was unstarred
    Image of Solomon Grundy Solomon Grundy
    10/23/09

    @Motoko Kusanagi: Nah, I actually had a whole graf about begging the question via a slippery working definition of "stupid," but I cut it because it was just too blowhardy, even for me. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Solomon Grundy was starred Solomon Grundy was unstarred
    Image of Motoko Kusanagi Motoko Kusanagi
    10/24/09

    @Solomon Grundy: Fair enuf! #freakonomics
     Reply
    Motoko Kusanagi was starred Motoko Kusanagi was unstarred
    Image of i'm a bottle i'm a bottle
    10/24/09

    @Solomon Grundy: Yes, this is a variant of an argument that religious types use to attempt to argue that it's necessary to believe even if you don't see the wisdom in something yourself. They ask: Why do many intelligent people believe in God if there weren't actually wisdom in believing in God?

    The answer to this question is that there are plenty of really smart people who don't (for instance, 98% of the members National Academy of Sciences are atheists/agnostics). In the same way, there are many smart people who think Levitt and Dubner are experts who are blinded by their own narrow methodology. Most of the detractors are social psychologists, sociologists, neuroscientists, even economists...oh, and Dostoyevsky, too, not the biggest fan of rationalizing human behavior.
     Reply
    Edited by i'm a bottle at 10/24/09 3:44 AM i'm a bottle was starred i'm a bottle was unstarred
    Image of Bottle-Of-Smoke Bottle-Of-Smoke
    10/24/09

    @i'm a bottle: To answer the question of those religious types another way, many intelligent people believe in God because of cognitive bias. The costs associated with mistaking a random event for something produced by a potential Great Friend in the Sky (a false positive) are arguably less than the costs of thinking an event is random when it is the result of a purposeful act of that Great (but now forsaken) Friend (the false negative). Fyodor be damned, we're back to rational choice!

    I can't fully believe this (mainly I just wanted to be ironic), but I think it carries some weight. The value comes in assigning that weight properly, and that's where I stand with Levitt's use of economics, and some of the other controversial applications of the harder soft-sciences- evolutionary psychology in particular. Even if the majority of the work is demonstrable bullshit, the process is useful and every once in a while, the result is revolutionary. Discrediting an entire line of thinking because of some faulty reasoning or disingenuous evidence is throwing the baby out with the bath water. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Bottle-Of-Smoke was starred Bottle-Of-Smoke was unstarred
    Image of edosan edosan
    10/23/09

    In reply to Freakonomics Has Always Been Dumb
    It's still better than Malcolm Gladwell and his "so I went and talked to this guy..." school of journalism. #freakonomics
     Reply
    i'm a bottle promoted this comment edosan was starred edosan was unstarred
    Image of shostakobitch shostakobitch
    10/23/09

    In reply to Freakonomics Has Always Been Dumb
    I also hate idiots who say completely correct, non-controversial things about global warming at parties. #freakonomics
     Reply
    shostakobitch was starred shostakobitch was unstarred
    Image of i'm a bottle i'm a bottle
    10/23/09

    @shostakobitch: Everytime I hear the phrase "we have to look at both sides of the issue" in reference to global warming or healthcare reform, I want to empty my glass on the utterer's shoes.
     Reply
    Edited by i'm a bottle at 10/23/09 2:50 PM i'm a bottle was starred i'm a bottle was unstarred
    Image of If_I_Had_a_Poodle If_I_Had_a_Poodle
    10/23/09

    @i'm a bottle: Yes, exactly. It's like looking at both sides of gravity. #freakonomics
     Reply
    If_I_Had_a_Poodle was starred If_I_Had_a_Poodle was unstarred
    Image of Tremonius Tremonius
    10/23/09

    @i'm a bottle: Includes me.

    Once there was a drunk who lectured a lady of my acquaintence to that effect, and I asked, "Why?" He had never thought of it. "I don't know why," he said. Everybody says it, so it must be so.

    If somebody believes in the Easter Bunny and Santa, we have to hear them out, despite us outgrowing such childhood fables as magical beings, the intelligence of the Common Man, and a free market economy. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Tremonius was starred Tremonius was unstarred
    Image of Solomon Grundy Solomon Grundy
    10/25/09

    @i'm a bottle: I love that this presupposes that you CONSTANTLY have a glass of wine in your hand. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Solomon Grundy was starred Solomon Grundy was unstarred
    Image of i'm a bottle i'm a bottle
    10/25/09

    @Solomon Grundy: HA! At parties, there isn't a moment that I don't have a glass in my hand.

    #freakonomics
     Reply
    i'm a bottle was starred i'm a bottle was unstarred
    Image of Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
    10/23/09

    In reply to Freakonomics Has Always Been Dumb
    Don't forget the chapter in which they can't figure out why ALL prostitutes don't become high-end escorts, and why 'trophy wives' don't become prostitutes. It's like Veronica Lodge wondering why poor people don't just use credit cards. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was starred Pizza!Pizza!Pizza! was unstarred
    Image of ambitious ambitious
    10/23/09

    @Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!: Yeah - that's what actually got my attention first.

    I thought the rise of behavioral and neuro economics would officially shut down this special brand of BS. Or at least make people more skeptical. #freakonomics
     Reply
    ambitious was starred ambitious was unstarred
    Image of Tremonius Tremonius
    10/23/09

    @Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!: I always thought "high-end escorts" referred to a certain position they were willing to assume.

    How many street call-outs would it take to bring in the amount of cash which slipped through the fingers of Anna Nicole Smith, somebody. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Tremonius was starred Tremonius was unstarred
    Image of RocketSurgeon RocketSurgeon
    10/23/09

    In reply to Freakonomics Has Always Been Dumb
    Lies, damn lies and statistics. #freakonomics
     Reply
    If_I_Had_a_Poodle promoted this comment RocketSurgeon was starred RocketSurgeon was unstarred
    Image of i'm a bottle i'm a bottle
    10/23/09

    In reply to Freakonomics Has Always Been Dumb
    My partner was attending the U of C for law school at the height of the Freakonomics craze. Everybody in Hyde Park seemed to be reading it. The law students I knew were all taken with Posner (who works closely with Gary Becker) and Richard Epstein -- three wholly insufferable thinkers. Their zeal for applying economic principles was generally frightening and maddening. Well, anyway, we're out having dinner one night, and my partner's classmate makes the remark: "I read that crime rates are always higher around streets named 'Martin Luther King Boulevard.'" It turns out that she's not trying to make the banal argument that established black neighborhoods have higher crime rates just because they're black neighborhoods -- which is what I first think she's up to -- she's actually forwarding the thesis that the name of the street is the necessary and sufficient condition for higher crime rates. This is obviously an extreme example.
     Reply
    Edited by i'm a bottle at 10/23/09 1:04 PM i'm a bottle was starred i'm a bottle was unstarred
    Image of Unsolicited Advice Unsolicited Advice
    10/23/09

    @i'm a bottle:

    Well yes I mean basically the biggest problem with their shit is it's one big brainless correlation hunt. They find a statistical relationship and then totally misinterpret the causal cues. Economic behavioralism uses empirical data to support correlations and turn them into legitimate causal relationships. Freakonomics says "wouldn't it be fucked up if THIS was why abortions and income are correlated?" in an effort to make a book-selling, inflammatory conclusion with no basis whatsoever.

    In their defense, I don't think Leavitt really sees his work as legitimate study - more of a food for thought thing. He's smart enough and credentialed enough to know what real research is. Pareene thinks research is googling a couple people that support his predetermined conclusions. I bet "people that disagree with X" is probably his most common search string, a process he views as a Search For Truth, based on the assumption that other bloggers and media personalities have done the research for him. This is scarcely true, because the media is basically built on people who can't be bothered to actually know fuck-all birthing consensus into fact. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Unsolicited Advice was starred Unsolicited Advice was unstarred
    Image of finite_elephant finite_elephant
    10/23/09

    @i'm a bottle: Ugh. One of my friends has a U of C MBA that must be of the same vintage. The guy applies half-understood economic theorettes to EVERYTHING. Breakfast cereal selection, child naming, fantasy football, etc. Any time he's provably wrong (which he is at a rate greater than random chance), he just shrugs and says that "there's still validity in taking an unconventional view." #freakonomics
     Reply
    i'm a bottle promoted this comment finite_elephant was starred finite_elephant was unstarred
    Image of Trulymadlyme Trulymadlyme
    10/23/09

    @i'm a bottle: Dear God. I went to U of C law. And if I had a dollar for every time I heard bullshit like this I would have paid off my student loans already. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Trulymadlyme was starred Trulymadlyme was unstarred
    Image of Superawesomerad Superawesomerad
    10/23/09

    @i'm a bottle: Law students: Repeating Chris Rock bits as fact since 2009. #freakonomics
     Reply
    i'm a bottle promoted this comment Superawesomerad was starred Superawesomerad was unstarred
    Image of ambitious ambitious
    10/23/09

    @i'm a bottle: That's a Chris Rock joke. Did she read this or was this screamed at her by HBO?
     Reply
    Edited by ambitious at 10/23/09 2:27 PM ambitious was starred ambitious was unstarred
    Image of i'm a bottle i'm a bottle
    10/23/09

    @ambitious: What? Really? No, you're kidding, right? Do you have YouTube proof? #freakonomics
     Reply
    i'm a bottle was starred i'm a bottle was unstarred
    Image of i'm a bottle i'm a bottle
    10/23/09

    @ambitious: I found it.

    It's pretty much the same idea that she expressed, though she wrapped it in (pseudo)scientific seriousness.

    [vdare.com]
     Reply
    Edited by i'm a bottle at 10/23/09 2:45 PM i'm a bottle was starred i'm a bottle was unstarred
    Image of ambitious ambitious
    10/23/09

    @i'm a bottle: Someone wiser and quicker on the draw should be able to find video but the "joke" does get a shout out on the wiki for streets named after King:

    " It is a stereotype that any street named after King is in a rough neighborhood and is to be avoided. Picking up on this stereotype, the comedian Chris Rock has said, "If you find yourself on 'Martin Luther King Boulevard', run!""

    [en.wikipedia.org] #freakonomics
     Reply
    ambitious was starred ambitious was unstarred
    Image of i'm a bottle i'm a bottle
    10/23/09

    @ambitious: Somebody repackaged a stupid cliché. #freakonomics
     Reply
    i'm a bottle was starred i'm a bottle was unstarred
    Image of Tremonius Tremonius
    10/23/09

    @i'm a bottle: There is much more prostitution up on 69th St. Proven fact.

    Posner enviserated the Kennedy Konspiracy Kooks. Utterly. Case Closed. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Tremonius was starred Tremonius was unstarred
    Image of autoclavicle autoclavicle
    10/24/09

    @i'm a bottle: Uh, that website reproduces that article, but the website itself is defined as a hate-group by the Southern Poverty Law Center. [www.splcenter.org]
     Reply
    i'm a bottle promoted this comment Edited by autoclavicle at 10/24/09 6:58 AM autoclavicle was starred autoclavicle was unstarred
    Image of i'm a bottle i'm a bottle
    10/24/09

    @autoclavicle: Uh huh, Virginia Dare. Thank you for the research. I had no idea what that website -- or Virginia Dare for that matter -- were. #freakonomics
     Reply
    i'm a bottle was starred i'm a bottle was unstarred
    Image of If_I_Had_a_Poodle If_I_Had_a_Poodle
    10/24/09

    @finite_elephant: @Trulymadlyme: UofC represent. Yep. Hoping all that crap is totally discredited ASAP, by the burning fire of reality. #freakonomics
     Reply
    If_I_Had_a_Poodle was starred If_I_Had_a_Poodle was unstarred
    Image of Foster Kamer Foster Kamer
    10/23/09

    In reply to Freakonomics Has Always Been Dumb
    becoming a gay serial killer was a rational consumer choice.

    For 500: This would explain what percentage of H & M's sales? #freakonomics
     Reply
    Foster Kamer was starred Foster Kamer was unstarred
    Image of If_I_Had_a_Poodle If_I_Had_a_Poodle
    10/23/09

    @Foster Kamer: Good one. Also, UofC economics is thankfully at long last being seriously chipped away at by the recent financial crisis. Efficient markets, well, aren't. #freakonomics
     Reply
    If_I_Had_a_Poodle was starred If_I_Had_a_Poodle was unstarred
    Image of MrInBetween MrInBetween
    10/23/09

    In reply to Freakonomics Has Always Been Dumb
    I refuse to buy this book. I'll wait for the next sequel, "Super-Duper Freakonomics." #freakonomics
     Reply
    MrInBetween was starred MrInBetween was unstarred
    Image of valhalla_i_am_coming valhalla_i_am_coming
    10/23/09

    In reply to Freakonomics Has Always Been Dumb
    I can't believe you forgot the part about how women should be high-end call girls. 'Cause it's a rational, logical choice of career for any young woman out there, pretty much. #freakonomics
     Reply
    Little Green Frog (Wise Latina) promoted this comment valhalla_i_am_coming was starred valhalla_i_am_coming was unstarred
    Image of iplaudius iplaudius
    10/23/09

    In reply to Freakonomics Has Always Been Dumb
    Every statistics textbook begins with a statement to the effect that analysis must begin with expert knowledge.

    Scholars such as Levitt, Dubner, Gladwell, and others have made careers of applying statistical methodology to data in fields far beyond their areas of expertise.

    Because they lack expert knowledge, they put forth absurd hypotheses and interpretations of the data. It creates a lot of work for experts to sort out in interdisciplinary and popular discourse, and, as you say, it can create stress at cocktail parties.
     Reply
    Edited by iplaudius at 10/23/09 12:40 PM iplaudius was starred iplaudius was unstarred
    Image of gbmbg gbmbg
    10/23/09

    @iplaudius: What really gets me about Freakonomics is the little snippets where they make themselves out to be modest and unassuming people who happen to be the greatest minds of this or any other century. You can feel the false modesty bleeding out of the ink. #freakonomics
     Reply
    iplaudius promoted this comment gbmbg was starred gbmbg was unstarred
    Image of MissNormaDesmond MissNormaDesmond
    10/23/09

    @iplaudius: They should all go to hell and take Malcolm Gladwell with them. Feh. #freakonomics
     Reply
    MissNormaDesmond was starred MissNormaDesmond was unstarred
    Image of i'm a bottle i'm a bottle
    10/23/09

    @MissNormaDesmond: Yes and yes. #freakonomics
     Reply
    i'm a bottle was starred i'm a bottle was unstarred
    Image of Unsolicited Advice Unsolicited Advice
    10/23/09

    In reply to Freakonomics Has Always Been Dumb
    The Convincing Tree:

    Empirical Study is greater than Empirical Study, Poorly Conducted is greater than Rhetoric is greater than Disconnecting ranting is greater than Mythology.
     Reply
    Edited by Unsolicited Advice at 10/23/09 12:26 PM Unsolicited Advice was starred Unsolicited Advice was unstarred
    Image of If_I_Had_a_Poodle If_I_Had_a_Poodle
    10/23/09

    @Unsolicited Advice: it could be time to be officially anti-contrarian #freakonomics
     Reply
    MisterHippity promoted this comment If_I_Had_a_Poodle was starred If_I_Had_a_Poodle was unstarred
    Image of If_I_Had_a_Poodle If_I_Had_a_Poodle
    10/23/09

    @if_i_only_had_a_heart: anti-anti-contrarian #freakonomics
     Reply
    MisterHippity promoted this comment If_I_Had_a_Poodle was starred If_I_Had_a_Poodle was unstarred
    Image of Unsolicited Advice Unsolicited Advice
    10/23/09

    @if_i_only_had_a_heart:

    Or it could just be time for there to be less journalism and more science #freakonomics
     Reply
    Unsolicited Advice was starred Unsolicited Advice was unstarred
    Image of If_I_Had_a_Poodle If_I_Had_a_Poodle
    10/23/09

    @Unsolicited Advice: this is almost always a good idea #freakonomics
     Reply
    If_I_Had_a_Poodle was starred If_I_Had_a_Poodle was unstarred
    Image of mypsychoticself mypsychoticself
    10/23/09

    @If_I_Had_a_Poodle: I'm against people who think they're against the establishment, but who haven't defined the establishment in such a way that they are excluded, and who have neither addressed nor even apprehended the obvious cognitive dissonance.

    I don't think there's a word for that. #freakonomics
     Reply
    If_I_Had_a_Poodle promoted this comment mypsychoticself was starred mypsychoticself was unstarred
    Image of If_I_Had_a_Poodle If_I_Had_a_Poodle
    10/23/09

    @mypsychoticself: Oh, there are several words for that: Hipster, shopper, consumer, etc. #freakonomics
     Reply
    If_I_Had_a_Poodle was starred If_I_Had_a_Poodle was unstarred
    Image of mypsychoticself mypsychoticself
    10/23/09

    @If_I_Had_a_Poodle: I believe Hipster is the most accurate. Is that the word for people who complain about consumer culture but still buy things they don't need?

    Whatever, it's close enough :) #freakonomics
     Reply
    mypsychoticself was starred mypsychoticself was unstarred
    Image of taftsearlobe33 taftsearlobe33
    11/17/08

    In reply to Howie Kurtz's Lament: Obama Worship Detected In Media!
    call me crazy but I have always thought we should wait till the new president actually does anything important before we start praising him. I mean he isn't even in office yet but you wouldn't be able to tell that by the amount of coverage he has gotten.
     Reply
    taftsearlobe33 was starred taftsearlobe33 was unstarred
    Image of Mediahohoho Mediahohoho
    11/18/08

    @taftsearlobe33: Praising is how you and Kurtz parse it. Covering is what the media does, probably because this is kind of a crucial time for whomever occupies the office, world history-wise and all.
     Reply
    Mediahohoho was starred Mediahohoho was unstarred
    Image of Trixie from Toronto Trixie from Toronto
    11/17/08

    In reply to Howie Kurtz's Lament: Obama Worship Detected In Media!
    His own paper's ombudsman recently came out to say the Post was biased in its coverage, and ran more negative stories about McCain than Obama during the campaign. Which kind of pissed me off. McCain ran a terrible campaign. He screwed up more. He picked a running mate who screwed up more. Obama, on the other hand, ran a flawless campaign and his running mate managed only to screw up a couple of times (all of them duly covered by the post).


    So if one candidate runs a brilliant campaign and another runs a disastrous one, isn't it likely that more negative stories are going to appear about the crap one?

     Reply
    Trixie from Toronto was starred Trixie from Toronto was unstarred
    Image of Botswana Meat Commission FC Botswana Meat Commission FC
    11/17/08

    In reply to Howie Kurtz's Lament: Obama Worship Detected In Media!
    There is always a level of excitement when a new president is coming to town - new aides to profile...


    You know you've been hitting the Washington cocktail circuit way too long when you find yourself writing shit like that.

     Reply
    Botswana Meat Commission FC was starred Botswana Meat Commission FC was unstarred
    Earlier discussions Other discussions Show all discussions Show featured discussions only Start a new discussion

Login

Enter your username and password.

Please enter a username.
Please enter your password.
logging in
Login via Facebook | Sign Up | Forgot Password?

Reset Password

Please enter your email address to have your password reset.

Please enter your email address.
Please enter a valid email address.
requesting password reset

Register

Registering will give you a user profile and the ability to add other users as friends. To become a commenter, however, you need to audition.

Want to know more? Consult the Comment FAQ and legal terms.

Please enter a username.
Please enter a password.
Please confirm your password.
Passwords are not identical.
Please enter a valid email address.
registration sent, waiting for reply

Submit Your Comment

You don't need to login to comment. Just enter your email address below.

See how your address will be displayed in the Comment FAQ.

Please enter a valid email address.
Please enter a valid email address.
logging in

Login with your Facebook or Gawker account.

Sign up here.



  • Archives
  • About
  • Advertising
  • Legal
  • Help
  • Report a Bug
  • FAQ
Original material is licensed under a Creative Commons License permitting non-commercial sharing with attribution.