I love Broadway and musicals, and Shrek received some good reviews, but looking at that picture makes me want to kill everyone involved in it.
I understand that the end of Shrek signals a lot of people losing their jobs, but thank god that overblown trash is shutting down. I hope the entire Broadway-spectacle-industrial-complex comes crashing down around itself so some creativity can find a home. #shrek
@nozer: it's a chicken-and-egg problem. The audience now is mostly tourists, and they want the Broadway Spectacle. So that is what gets funded. Not sure if the spectacle drove away the locals and is now self-perpetuating, but if your paying customers want X.... #shrek
@FormerEnglishMajor: Definitely, further proof that free market systems just don't work.
But seriously, my hope would be that as more tourists stop coming to see these shows that the whole Broadway economy would contract, causing less money to get funneled into it. This would hopefully cause producers to seek out quality since they can't have quantity. Or the entire industry could just crash. I think when theater is genuinely good or buzz-worthy, NYers will flock to it, and tourists will begin to pay attention to it. The way it exists right now, however, is just really sad. It reminds me of the kind of shows you can watch at a Six Flags.
Maybe if we didn't have Shrek, The Little Mermaid, and Rock of Ages, tourists wanting a Broadway experience would still go see Patti Lupone in Gypsy or Passing Strange or the recent revival of Company. Those might not be the most revolutionary nights in theatre, but I think they at least represent an attempt for artistic merit. #shrek
Sadly, the House of Cards series will never succeed unless it gets picked up by a cable net. If it remains true to the miniseries and the novel, the main character is far too eagerly evil and ruthless to be palatable for mainstream American audiences. Or, they could dumb it down like they have any number of other British adaptations and ruin it, which I guess is far more likely than a good cable run. #shrek
@TipsyVonDrinklestein: Having been unfortunate (read: drunk) enough to see the series finale of the US adaptation of Life On Mars, I must concede to your point. And the sad thing is, I don't think Americans are against ruthless unlikeable characters (professional wrestling continues to do very well, despite all odds), I just think television producers continue to look at polling from 1960 and make their decisions from there. #shrek
@ampersandparade: Also, see "Cold Feet", "Teachers", "Men Behaving Badly", and the failed attempt to produce "Top Gear". I definitely think there's a huge problem of network executives underestimating their audiences.
However, "King of Queens" was very successful so I could be wrong. Sigh. #shrek
@TipsyVonDrinklestein: The Top Gear situation can also directly link back to the NBC thread about the failure of that network to understand how to appeal to anyone, ever, under any circumstances. The idea that Knight Rider had anything to do with Top Gear is laughable.
But truth be told, I could easily see NBC making the American Top Gear very 'Spike TV' thinking that women are not interested in cars, and it suffering similar defeat. Maybe the best think Americans could do is take five minutes to come up with an original creative idea, or to import the original British idea without sticking it on BBC America. #shrek
@TipsyVonDrinklestein: Could have a lot to do with Brit series having more flexibility than the US, too -- are there US series that have had only two or three series, intentionally, even if they're popular? That seems key, as does the shorter run element.
Also, "Spaced" and "Green Wing" are both on Hulu right now. The Hulu gods will make a killing if they keep that up for all good Brit series... #shrek
@limber: I also think the major networks have a very distinct fear of showing unpalatable, but successful, characters.
Look at "Bodies". That series was a horrifying look at incompetent doctors in a hospital--incompetent and unpunished (for the most part). The FU character from House of Cards is the same way--despicable, but victorious (again, for the most part). The teachers in "Teachers" are unmotivated, show up to work hung over, and make dubious choices where their students and jobs are concerned. They're also very human. But never in a million years would they portray teachers in a light like that on NBC, or any other major network.
And yes, limiting series is great! It keeps them fresh. I believe that telenovelas often do the same and are wildly successful. #shrek
@TipsyVonDrinklestein: I did once get the UK "Teachers" theme in my head, abruptly and without warning. I was totally confused until I realized Andrew Lincoln was BIKING towards me along the Caledonian Road, thus kicking off the theme instantly, Palov-like. It was a great day.
You're right, many of the shows aren't uplifting. But they are awesome, which helps. #shrek
Unfortunately, even people who want "Dollhouse" to succeed have to struggle to like it. Yes, it's an intriguing concept, executed by incredibly creative people. But the problems (plot holes the size of potholes; a powerful conspiracy run by amazingly inept conspirators; a main character who's barely a "character" at all; too-frequent scenes of mindless women being whored out, even if the practice is depicted as mostly evil) are just too big for the writers to overcome. A show like this would have trouble staying on the air even if it were great -- but under the circumstances, it's unlikely that too many people will be upset if Whedon & co. have to move on to other projects.
@TedSez: I agree. It's a shame a Whedon vehicle like Firefly which some solid writing and plot direction didn't get the same longer chance that Dollhouse did. #shrek
@TedSez: Yeah, there are two kinds of shows that are too "challenging" and "complex" for television. One is the truly great, truly memorable things like "Carnivale" (which ended because of a dispute with the producer, or something?), and the other is the faux-depth of something like "Dollhouse". Which pains me to say, because I loved firefly to no uncertain extreme.
You know, I think shows like Dollhouse fail precisely because they're not insane enough. Dollhouse and something like The Sarah Connor Chronicles are mostly weepy soap-style dramaction shows, with long sad loving looks and saving babies, and stupid undercover agent scenes, and not enough fun insane fantasy. My favourite dollhouse episode was the outrageous post-apocalyptic episode. So good. #shrek
@TedSez: It has been so uneven, too. It's hard to feel there's an overarching story because everything's so disconnected but it doesn't work as purely episodic, either, because then it's just mindless 'ho/Echo breakdown of the week.
Whedon should have gone for Firefly 2 when Nathan Fillion was available. Ah, well. #shrek
I was going to say something swarthy, but these new comments make my web browser cry.
So what is Tarantino's Pool movie? Jackie Brown?
And why the dichotomy between Kill Bill Vol. 1. and 2. I hated vol. 1 when I saw it. Schlocky and empty. But Vol. 2 was so "Wow!" Emotional, Kick-Ass and heartbreaking, all in one.
Don't want to pile on, but I think you missed the context of the quote. That swimming pool line was actually in reference to some of the lower moments in the careers of the auteurs who came of age in the 1970s: F.F. Coppola, Bogdanovich, DePalma, Billy Friedkin, etc. (who are all now in the 60s).
Hey Mark! I get the reference and what I'm arguing is that we (as in The Youngs) didn't need to wait that long to watch a new group of directors hit their low point. And the one's I highlighted, I don't feel, have really come back from that low.
And yeah, De Palma and Friedkin peaked and then plummeted so maybe there's nothing different or special about the the way these directors have sunk. But it still sucks to watch.
@NatashaVC: If I were running the videostore that Otis works at in KICKING AND SCREAMING, I would've filed all of those (save for THE TRUTH ABOUT CHARLIE and LUCKY YOU) under "Interesting Failures," not "Pool Movies."
I still feel like C. Hanson has a few good movies in him; I just hope he finds them. It's been a long time since WONDER BOYS (though 8 MILE was fairly dece).
You didn't like Jonathan Demme's Rachel Getting Married? To be honest, I didn't. But I'm the only person I know that didn't seem to absolutely love it.
You'll do schlock to maintain your lifestyle? You don't want to work past 50? Color me surprised. And hey - you can play this game with actors too (unless Meryl Streep was unable to fully flesh out her character in The Devil Wears Prada)
Chronology does matter. Ang made 'Ride with the Devil' and the 'Ice Storm' which were flawed but ultimately riskier movies. Then he made the Hulk, which, you know is, well, you know.
@NatashaVC: Right. And since "The Hulk", he's churned out formulaic studio action films like "Brokeback Mountain" and "Lust, Caution", which I think we can all agree were safe movies made purely for the money and in no way risky.
Good point. I don't maybe he's always been a mediocre storyteller with a luscious eye. I just really loved 'Crouching Tiger' and when Hulk came out, I felt sad. It's a sad thing, no? When some one you were excited about turns out not to be very exciting at all?
@NatashaVC: So you weren't at all excited by Brokeback Mountain? Or Zodiac? Or Che, which is pretty much the exact opposite of a "pool movie"? The point of Tarantino's quote is that he doesn't want to be an auteur who becomes a total hack. All of the directors you've listed have made some subpar movies, but it's a little soon to write them off as hacks, or simply doing movies for a paycheck, especially when half have done some of their best work after their supposed "pool movies'.
Ban me if you must, but this was an ill-thought post, neither accurate nor amusing. Oh, and your comment typos are killing me.
@NatashaVC: That certainly is a sad thing. But it's not what happened, at least with me, on "The Hulk". I didn't come out of it thinking, "Well, I guess, on the basis of this one movie, Ang Lee isn't very exciting at all." I came out of it thinking, "Well, maybe his next one will be better." Which it was -- in fact, it's probably my favorite of his movies. Ditto for Fincher and "Zodiac". Some directors do become hacks. But your examples are way off-base.
@Natasha VC: Sorry, you can't switch in midstream from arguing "these movies represent major downward turning points in these directors' careers" to "these particular movies are hacky". And as for the argument, "Hey, it's OK to make half-assed arguments about movies! What're you getting so bent out of shape about? The people who make them are millionaires!" -- that's just embarrassing. I don't think any of us are trying to defend David Fincher's hurt feelings -- I'm not sticking up for the filmmakers, so much as I'm sticking up for their movies.
Now, you're entitled to your opinions on these movies -- if you think "Philadelphia" and "Traffic" were great movies, then fine. We have different tastes. But when the examples you present don't even make chronological sense -- as when you laud "Che" and "Brokeback", which were made *after* their directors' supposed "pool movies" -- or when your argument relies on a highly dubious assumption about the motivations behind making a particular movie -- ie., that "The Good German", a black-and-white movie shot in the style of a '40s melodrama was seen as a commercial safe bet -- then I think maybe writing about film might not be your strongest suit.
@jerusalemcricket: Honestly? It was a well-thought post, and the evidence of that are the 100+ comments on it: the points are arguable, and it's a fun read to engage in. This is what the new comments system is for: bringing an awesome debate into the fold, and throwing the rest of it in the compost. Don't be a bummer. Or a typo-capo.
The only saving grace for Rodriguez about the "Spy Kids" franchise was that he pretty much said it he wanted to make something his kids could watch and he wanted to play with Green Screen technology.
I actually don't mind those movies. My kids like them and more Ricardo Montalbán is always a good thing.
10/30/09
10/22/09
I understand that the end of Shrek signals a lot of people losing their jobs, but thank god that overblown trash is shutting down. I hope the entire Broadway-spectacle-industrial-complex comes crashing down around itself so some creativity can find a home. #shrek
10/22/09
10/22/09
But seriously, my hope would be that as more tourists stop coming to see these shows that the whole Broadway economy would contract, causing less money to get funneled into it. This would hopefully cause producers to seek out quality since they can't have quantity. Or the entire industry could just crash. I think when theater is genuinely good or buzz-worthy, NYers will flock to it, and tourists will begin to pay attention to it. The way it exists right now, however, is just really sad. It reminds me of the kind of shows you can watch at a Six Flags.
Maybe if we didn't have Shrek, The Little Mermaid, and Rock of Ages, tourists wanting a Broadway experience would still go see Patti Lupone in Gypsy or Passing Strange or the recent revival of Company. Those might not be the most revolutionary nights in theatre, but I think they at least represent an attempt for artistic merit. #shrek
10/22/09
10/22/09
10/22/09
However, "King of Queens" was very successful so I could be wrong. Sigh. #shrek
10/22/09
But truth be told, I could easily see NBC making the American Top Gear very 'Spike TV' thinking that women are not interested in cars, and it suffering similar defeat. Maybe the best think Americans could do is take five minutes to come up with an original creative idea, or to import the original British idea without sticking it on BBC America. #shrek
10/22/09
Also, "Spaced" and "Green Wing" are both on Hulu right now. The Hulu gods will make a killing if they keep that up for all good Brit series... #shrek
10/22/09
Look at "Bodies". That series was a horrifying look at incompetent doctors in a hospital--incompetent and unpunished (for the most part). The FU character from House of Cards is the same way--despicable, but victorious (again, for the most part). The teachers in "Teachers" are unmotivated, show up to work hung over, and make dubious choices where their students and jobs are concerned. They're also very human. But never in a million years would they portray teachers in a light like that on NBC, or any other major network.
And yes, limiting series is great! It keeps them fresh. I believe that telenovelas often do the same and are wildly successful. #shrek
10/22/09
You're right, many of the shows aren't uplifting. But they are awesome, which helps. #shrek
10/22/09
10/22/09
10/22/09
You know, I think shows like Dollhouse fail precisely because they're not insane enough. Dollhouse and something like The Sarah Connor Chronicles are mostly weepy soap-style dramaction shows, with long sad loving looks and saving babies, and stupid undercover agent scenes, and not enough fun insane fantasy. My favourite dollhouse episode was the outrageous post-apocalyptic episode. So good. #shrek
10/22/09
10/22/09
Whedon should have gone for Firefly 2 when Nathan Fillion was available. Ah, well. #shrek
07/15/09
So what is Tarantino's Pool movie? Jackie Brown?
And why the dichotomy between Kill Bill Vol. 1. and 2. I hated vol. 1 when I saw it. Schlocky and empty. But Vol. 2 was so "Wow!" Emotional, Kick-Ass and heartbreaking, all in one.
07/15/09
07/15/09
07/15/09
Hey Mark! I get the reference and what I'm arguing is that we (as in The Youngs) didn't need to wait that long to watch a new group of directors hit their low point. And the one's I highlighted, I don't feel, have really come back from that low.
And yeah, De Palma and Friedkin peaked and then plummeted so maybe there's nothing different or special about the the way these directors have sunk. But it still sucks to watch.
07/15/09
I still feel like C. Hanson has a few good movies in him; I just hope he finds them. It's been a long time since WONDER BOYS (though 8 MILE was fairly dece).
07/15/09
07/15/09
07/15/09
Serious questions: How many times have you watched an Akira Kurosawa film?
07/15/09
07/16/09
07/16/09
The Katie Bakes Scale of Movie Acceptability.
07/15/09
07/15/09
07/16/09
How do I give two gold stars?
07/15/09
Wait a second...
07/15/09
07/15/09
07/15/09
07/15/09
07/15/09
Obviously Soderbergh's "Pool Movies" are Oceans 11, 12, and 13.
07/15/09
07/15/09
I had totally forgotten about that! Do you think Brad will only make Serious Movies now?
07/15/09
Because it was a pretty cynical star vehicle.
07/15/09
07/15/09
07/15/09
07/15/09
07/15/09
07/15/09
07/15/09
Chronology does matter. Ang made 'Ride with the Devil' and the 'Ice Storm' which were flawed but ultimately riskier movies. Then he made the Hulk, which, you know is, well, you know.
07/15/09
07/15/09
Good point. I don't maybe he's always been a mediocre storyteller with a luscious eye. I just really loved 'Crouching Tiger' and when Hulk came out, I felt sad. It's a sad thing, no? When some one you were excited about turns out not to be very exciting at all?
07/15/09
Ban me if you must, but this was an ill-thought post, neither accurate nor amusing. Oh, and your comment typos are killing me.
07/15/09
07/16/09
Awww I', just glad u read my commentz
07/16/09
Oh, c'mon! Why do people get so defensive about millionaires?! Each one of those trailers illustrates a piece of hackery.
I did like Zodiac though, but only because I have a thing for husky midwesiterns. RUFFALO.
07/16/09
Now, you're entitled to your opinions on these movies -- if you think "Philadelphia" and "Traffic" were great movies, then fine. We have different tastes. But when the examples you present don't even make chronological sense -- as when you laud "Che" and "Brokeback", which were made *after* their directors' supposed "pool movies" -- or when your argument relies on a highly dubious assumption about the motivations behind making a particular movie -- ie., that "The Good German", a black-and-white movie shot in the style of a '40s melodrama was seen as a commercial safe bet -- then I think maybe writing about film might not be your strongest suit.
Still, agreed on Ruffalo.
07/16/09
07/15/09
I actually don't mind those movies. My kids like them and more Ricardo Montalbán is always a good thing.
07/16/09
What about YOUR FABULOUS NAME?
07/16/09
06/25/09