No one should be upset at the cancellation of this dreck. It was a mercy kill. Doesn't Joss have enough clout now to a) avoid Fox and b) retain creative control over his product? Honestly, though, I still can't get over him thinking that Faith could do anything but be Faith. Why not just follow Dushku around South side Boston and be done with it? #dollhouse
Speaking of Fox: On this week's "House," they had a Whedonesque, beloved-by-geeks writer whom the doctors suspecting of roofie-ing and taking advantage of a teen girl fan in his hotel room. It turned out he didn't do it (she had a medical condition that made her lie about everything, or something -- who can ever tell?), but he still came off as a sleazeball.
Maybe that was the network's way of telling Whedon goodbye. #dollhouse
@Cicada: I think the consensus was that FOX would only renew one or the other and settled on Dollhouse because T:SCC had already been given one renewal
T:SCC was also probably more expensive for FOX, since the network would be paying license fees to Warner Bros for the Terminator rights, while it was producing Dollhouse, well, in-house.
No leaked memos, to my knowledge, but I do seem to remember that when the axe finally came down, one of the FOX execs made some ridiculously self-contradictory remark about how it wasn't an "either/or" decision, but they "ultimately chose Dollhouse, so that was it for T:SCC"
@Sergio Hernandez: That is some effing stupid studio exec logic right there. Why link the fate of two different shows in that way? It also sounds like they were thinking about money before anything else, and I know they had Whedon slash his budget for season 2 under threat of getting the axe.
I'm sure we'll see another low-budget reality show fill the slot left by Dollhouse. Bleh. #dollhouse
@Cicada: "It also sounds like they were thinking about money before anything else..."
They are a television network. Of course they were thinking about money before anything else. Things do what they are designed to do - spiders spin webs, fish swim, corporations seek profit. It constantly surprises me that people expect otherwise. #dollhouse
@Sleepyhead: Oh, of course they were thinking about money. I should clarify: they were taking the short view with regards to profit vs. the long view with regards to developing a lasting audience for the series (and possibly greater profits).
I canceled my cable months ago for just this reason. I'd rather pick and choose the content I watch via Hulu or Netflix than wade through hours of crap on network television. Why pay for all the dreck? #dollhouse
@Cicada: This thread could have been about toothpaste commercials and I promise there would have been a comment along the lines of "Thats why I canceled my cable..." blah blah blah.
Oh, and network television generally refers to the free stations that are broadcast with or without cable. generally when one is paying for cable it is for stations such as food network, bravo, comedy central, etc... Those aren't generally considered network television, they are considered cable television.
The whole "I canceled my cable over this" is an old line.... just like "I threw up in my mouth a little bit". If you don't watch TV or don't find value in cable, then fine - but why does every article about a tv show have to include such statements?
Its not like I'll be talking with my friends this wekeend about Dollhouse and then chime in with, 'Well, you know, its crap like this that caused Cicada on the Gawker Forums to cancel their cable subscription. " #dollhouse
@eXo: To clarify: I don't have an antenna, so without cable I don't get decent reception on any network television channels either. I suppose I could pay for an antenna, but meh.
Also, you're probably seeing a lot of people comment about canceling their cable because they are: [www.homemediamagazine.com]
I thought the comment was pertinent to the situation because we were talking about Fox using a short-sighted business model, where they make money now but drive off consumers like me. And it isn't just Fox, it's pretty much every network. I watch around four television shows a week, all via internet, and I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.
One last thing: I hope for your friend's sakes that you never bore the shit out of them with stories about random internet commenters. Just the thought of someone doing that makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit.
As a HUGE fan of Firefly and Serenity I was more upset that he wasn't penning a sequel to the latter, and instead was fascinated with like boyish adoration for this whole Dollhouse biz, and his web videos, and being a general egotistical, Tim Burtonesque prima donna.
Yah, yah, he says no studio was interested in a Serenity sequel, despite huge DVD sales, fan reverence, and shameless plugs from the cast post-movie...but, you know, yeah, if there's no script...perhaps not. Seemed this whole Dollhouse Dushku love-fest was really just a distraction and a long disinteresting cat-toy for Fox. They were over it after a few episodes, and right they should have been. It sucked. If you absolutely must put Dusku in something...she'd make a great character in what?....oh, yeah, a Serenity sequel.
So I say, c'mon Whedon, try and market your success, pen a new script, and do the damn thing! It seems the whole cast either isn't doing anything at all (Castle...whatever) OR they're already on sub par Sci-Fi shows (V can spare Baccarin and Tudyk), but all have left the door open for you and seem to be waiting for the call.
@secretagentman: The last officially tracked sales numbers were more than $24 million in 2006, with the movie debuting in 2005, but of course that was 3 years ago and there are still sales being made.
I have to say I liked this show MUCH better than Buffy, which was highly overrated. It was smart - not just snappy dialogue smart, but truly, deeply , authentically smart. #dollhouse
The saddest part about this is that Dollhouse really did have a lousy start, but it's totally hit it's stride now and is a fantastic show. At least Whedon has already given Dollhouse an ending, so all of us fangirls and boys can have closure.
Whedon will continue to make good product, and his fans will eagerly await whatever comes next. #dollhouse
@daveyjonesisdead: I never watched it because the concept, as you described and it was originally marketed screamed for pay cable. I just didn't want to watch love dolls and be left unsatisfied. #dollhouse
@Magister: That's another problem with how Fox handled the series. Whedon was making a show about free will and slavery and Fox was marketing it as soft-core Dushku porn. I imagine some folks were turned off by the marketing, while the ones who liked it were disappointed by the show itself. #dollhouse
I love Broadway and musicals, and Shrek received some good reviews, but looking at that picture makes me want to kill everyone involved in it.
I understand that the end of Shrek signals a lot of people losing their jobs, but thank god that overblown trash is shutting down. I hope the entire Broadway-spectacle-industrial-complex comes crashing down around itself so some creativity can find a home. #shrek
@nozer: it's a chicken-and-egg problem. The audience now is mostly tourists, and they want the Broadway Spectacle. So that is what gets funded. Not sure if the spectacle drove away the locals and is now self-perpetuating, but if your paying customers want X.... #shrek
@FormerEnglishMajor: Definitely, further proof that free market systems just don't work.
But seriously, my hope would be that as more tourists stop coming to see these shows that the whole Broadway economy would contract, causing less money to get funneled into it. This would hopefully cause producers to seek out quality since they can't have quantity. Or the entire industry could just crash. I think when theater is genuinely good or buzz-worthy, NYers will flock to it, and tourists will begin to pay attention to it. The way it exists right now, however, is just really sad. It reminds me of the kind of shows you can watch at a Six Flags.
Maybe if we didn't have Shrek, The Little Mermaid, and Rock of Ages, tourists wanting a Broadway experience would still go see Patti Lupone in Gypsy or Passing Strange or the recent revival of Company. Those might not be the most revolutionary nights in theatre, but I think they at least represent an attempt for artistic merit. #shrek
Sadly, the House of Cards series will never succeed unless it gets picked up by a cable net. If it remains true to the miniseries and the novel, the main character is far too eagerly evil and ruthless to be palatable for mainstream American audiences. Or, they could dumb it down like they have any number of other British adaptations and ruin it, which I guess is far more likely than a good cable run. #shrek
@TipsyVonDrinklestein: Having been unfortunate (read: drunk) enough to see the series finale of the US adaptation of Life On Mars, I must concede to your point. And the sad thing is, I don't think Americans are against ruthless unlikeable characters (professional wrestling continues to do very well, despite all odds), I just think television producers continue to look at polling from 1960 and make their decisions from there. #shrek
@ampersandparade: Also, see "Cold Feet", "Teachers", "Men Behaving Badly", and the failed attempt to produce "Top Gear". I definitely think there's a huge problem of network executives underestimating their audiences.
However, "King of Queens" was very successful so I could be wrong. Sigh. #shrek
@TipsyVonDrinklestein: The Top Gear situation can also directly link back to the NBC thread about the failure of that network to understand how to appeal to anyone, ever, under any circumstances. The idea that Knight Rider had anything to do with Top Gear is laughable.
But truth be told, I could easily see NBC making the American Top Gear very 'Spike TV' thinking that women are not interested in cars, and it suffering similar defeat. Maybe the best think Americans could do is take five minutes to come up with an original creative idea, or to import the original British idea without sticking it on BBC America. #shrek
@TipsyVonDrinklestein: Could have a lot to do with Brit series having more flexibility than the US, too -- are there US series that have had only two or three series, intentionally, even if they're popular? That seems key, as does the shorter run element.
Also, "Spaced" and "Green Wing" are both on Hulu right now. The Hulu gods will make a killing if they keep that up for all good Brit series... #shrek
@limber: I also think the major networks have a very distinct fear of showing unpalatable, but successful, characters.
Look at "Bodies". That series was a horrifying look at incompetent doctors in a hospital--incompetent and unpunished (for the most part). The FU character from House of Cards is the same way--despicable, but victorious (again, for the most part). The teachers in "Teachers" are unmotivated, show up to work hung over, and make dubious choices where their students and jobs are concerned. They're also very human. But never in a million years would they portray teachers in a light like that on NBC, or any other major network.
And yes, limiting series is great! It keeps them fresh. I believe that telenovelas often do the same and are wildly successful. #shrek
@TipsyVonDrinklestein: I did once get the UK "Teachers" theme in my head, abruptly and without warning. I was totally confused until I realized Andrew Lincoln was BIKING towards me along the Caledonian Road, thus kicking off the theme instantly, Palov-like. It was a great day.
You're right, many of the shows aren't uplifting. But they are awesome, which helps. #shrek
Unfortunately, even people who want "Dollhouse" to succeed have to struggle to like it. Yes, it's an intriguing concept, executed by incredibly creative people. But the problems (plot holes the size of potholes; a powerful conspiracy run by amazingly inept conspirators; a main character who's barely a "character" at all; too-frequent scenes of mindless women being whored out, even if the practice is depicted as mostly evil) are just too big for the writers to overcome. A show like this would have trouble staying on the air even if it were great -- but under the circumstances, it's unlikely that too many people will be upset if Whedon & co. have to move on to other projects.
@TedSez: I agree. It's a shame a Whedon vehicle like Firefly which some solid writing and plot direction didn't get the same longer chance that Dollhouse did. #shrek
@TedSez: Yeah, there are two kinds of shows that are too "challenging" and "complex" for television. One is the truly great, truly memorable things like "Carnivale" (which ended because of a dispute with the producer, or something?), and the other is the faux-depth of something like "Dollhouse". Which pains me to say, because I loved firefly to no uncertain extreme.
You know, I think shows like Dollhouse fail precisely because they're not insane enough. Dollhouse and something like The Sarah Connor Chronicles are mostly weepy soap-style dramaction shows, with long sad loving looks and saving babies, and stupid undercover agent scenes, and not enough fun insane fantasy. My favourite dollhouse episode was the outrageous post-apocalyptic episode. So good. #shrek
@TedSez: It has been so uneven, too. It's hard to feel there's an overarching story because everything's so disconnected but it doesn't work as purely episodic, either, because then it's just mindless 'ho/Echo breakdown of the week.
Whedon should have gone for Firefly 2 when Nathan Fillion was available. Ah, well. #shrek
i luv eliza dushku, the bad slayer; and i luv that the plot device is a 5 min throwaway scene in neuromancer, when molly, the street samurai, talks about having "worked" to save up for her adaptations but the chip that was supposed to block everything out sometimes let the scenes leak thru ... brilliant premise
I will cop to liking Terminator and Fringe, but this? I mean look at that set. Clearly it was designed for repurposing in the mid-season debut of Star Trek: We're Not Really Even Trying Anymore.
Yeah, I nothing but love JW's other shows, but this stank out loud. Whose idea was it to put Eliza Dushku, who has trouble with a single one-note performance in Buffy, at the forefront of a show that calls for a different role every week? Weirdly, the best Joss Whedon show of the last few years has been Astonishing X-Men. Interesting characters, great plot twists, fun dialogue, killer visuals... it's all there, and you can take it on the train without an iPod.
@Perhaps Not: Dushku did too much acting with her hands in a role/persona (high-stakes hostage negotiator) that called for stillness. I need to see her character perform in another "active" role before I make final judgment.
@Perhaps Not: I love that Dushku's interpretation of Echo's face after she's been wiped is, "hm, I'd like to get some oreos now." Her face is a one trick pony.
I'm a huge, huge Whedon fan, and I thought Dollhouse was terrible. Buffy/Angel/Firefly were great because of intensely clever dialogue and likable characters. With Dollhouse, the dialogue thudded, and the characters were ciphers. Not even a shirtless Helo could salvage this mess (which isn't to say I didn't hit pause a couple of times during that sequence).
11/11/09
11/11/09
Maybe that was the network's way of telling Whedon goodbye. #dollhouse
11/11/09
I'd much rather have had a third full season of a doomed but great show than a second season of a mediocre and doomed show. Meh. #dollhouse
11/11/09
ETA: I've seen this subject brought up before and am just wondering if there's some fact behind it. Did some Fox memo leak or something?
11/11/09
T:SCC was also probably more expensive for FOX, since the network would be paying license fees to Warner Bros for the Terminator rights, while it was producing Dollhouse, well, in-house.
No leaked memos, to my knowledge, but I do seem to remember that when the axe finally came down, one of the FOX execs made some ridiculously self-contradictory remark about how it wasn't an "either/or" decision, but they "ultimately chose Dollhouse, so that was it for T:SCC"
11/11/09
I'm sure we'll see another low-budget reality show fill the slot left by Dollhouse. Bleh. #dollhouse
11/11/09
They are a television network. Of course they were thinking about money before anything else. Things do what they are designed to do - spiders spin webs, fish swim, corporations seek profit. It constantly surprises me that people expect otherwise. #dollhouse
11/11/09
I canceled my cable months ago for just this reason. I'd rather pick and choose the content I watch via Hulu or Netflix than wade through hours of crap on network television. Why pay for all the dreck? #dollhouse
11/13/09
Oh, and network television generally refers to the free stations that are broadcast with or without cable. generally when one is paying for cable it is for stations such as food network, bravo, comedy central, etc... Those aren't generally considered network television, they are considered cable television.
The whole "I canceled my cable over this" is an old line.... just like "I threw up in my mouth a little bit". If you don't watch TV or don't find value in cable, then fine - but why does every article about a tv show have to include such statements?
Its not like I'll be talking with my friends this wekeend about Dollhouse and then chime in with, 'Well, you know, its crap like this that caused Cicada on the Gawker Forums to cancel their cable subscription. " #dollhouse
11/13/09
Also, you're probably seeing a lot of people comment about canceling their cable because they are:
[www.homemediamagazine.com]
I thought the comment was pertinent to the situation because we were talking about Fox using a short-sighted business model, where they make money now but drive off consumers like me. And it isn't just Fox, it's pretty much every network. I watch around four television shows a week, all via internet, and I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.
One last thing: I hope for your friend's sakes that you never bore the shit out of them with stories about random internet commenters. Just the thought of someone doing that makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit.
11/13/09
11/11/09
Yah, yah, he says no studio was interested in a Serenity sequel, despite huge DVD sales, fan reverence, and shameless plugs from the cast post-movie...but, you know, yeah, if there's no script...perhaps not. Seemed this whole Dollhouse Dushku love-fest was really just a distraction and a long disinteresting cat-toy for Fox. They were over it after a few episodes, and right they should have been. It sucked. If you absolutely must put Dusku in something...she'd make a great character in what?....oh, yeah, a Serenity sequel.
So I say, c'mon Whedon, try and market your success, pen a new script, and do the damn thing! It seems the whole cast either isn't doing anything at all (Castle...whatever) OR they're already on sub par Sci-Fi shows (V can spare Baccarin and Tudyk), but all have left the door open for you and seem to be waiting for the call.
Pick up the phone.
/rant over. #dollhouse
11/11/09
11/11/09
11/11/09
11/11/09
Whedon will continue to make good product, and his fans will eagerly await whatever comes next. #dollhouse
11/11/09
11/11/09
11/11/09
11/11/09
But again, I never really paid that much attention. #dollhouse
11/11/09
10/30/09
10/22/09
I understand that the end of Shrek signals a lot of people losing their jobs, but thank god that overblown trash is shutting down. I hope the entire Broadway-spectacle-industrial-complex comes crashing down around itself so some creativity can find a home. #shrek
10/22/09
10/22/09
But seriously, my hope would be that as more tourists stop coming to see these shows that the whole Broadway economy would contract, causing less money to get funneled into it. This would hopefully cause producers to seek out quality since they can't have quantity. Or the entire industry could just crash. I think when theater is genuinely good or buzz-worthy, NYers will flock to it, and tourists will begin to pay attention to it. The way it exists right now, however, is just really sad. It reminds me of the kind of shows you can watch at a Six Flags.
Maybe if we didn't have Shrek, The Little Mermaid, and Rock of Ages, tourists wanting a Broadway experience would still go see Patti Lupone in Gypsy or Passing Strange or the recent revival of Company. Those might not be the most revolutionary nights in theatre, but I think they at least represent an attempt for artistic merit. #shrek
10/22/09
10/22/09
10/22/09
However, "King of Queens" was very successful so I could be wrong. Sigh. #shrek
10/22/09
But truth be told, I could easily see NBC making the American Top Gear very 'Spike TV' thinking that women are not interested in cars, and it suffering similar defeat. Maybe the best think Americans could do is take five minutes to come up with an original creative idea, or to import the original British idea without sticking it on BBC America. #shrek
10/22/09
Also, "Spaced" and "Green Wing" are both on Hulu right now. The Hulu gods will make a killing if they keep that up for all good Brit series... #shrek
10/22/09
Look at "Bodies". That series was a horrifying look at incompetent doctors in a hospital--incompetent and unpunished (for the most part). The FU character from House of Cards is the same way--despicable, but victorious (again, for the most part). The teachers in "Teachers" are unmotivated, show up to work hung over, and make dubious choices where their students and jobs are concerned. They're also very human. But never in a million years would they portray teachers in a light like that on NBC, or any other major network.
And yes, limiting series is great! It keeps them fresh. I believe that telenovelas often do the same and are wildly successful. #shrek
10/22/09
You're right, many of the shows aren't uplifting. But they are awesome, which helps. #shrek
10/22/09
10/22/09
10/22/09
You know, I think shows like Dollhouse fail precisely because they're not insane enough. Dollhouse and something like The Sarah Connor Chronicles are mostly weepy soap-style dramaction shows, with long sad loving looks and saving babies, and stupid undercover agent scenes, and not enough fun insane fantasy. My favourite dollhouse episode was the outrageous post-apocalyptic episode. So good. #shrek
10/22/09
10/22/09
Whedon should have gone for Firefly 2 when Nathan Fillion was available. Ah, well. #shrek
02/16/09
but i didn't watch it
02/16/09
02/16/09
02/16/09
02/16/09
02/17/09
02/17/09
Hooray!
02/16/09