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New York, 3:11 PM
Thu Dec 17
60 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of raincoaster raincoaster
    12/16/09

    In reply to Bill Keller Response Response Response Response!
    It's been done.
     Reply
    raincoaster was starred raincoaster was unstarred
    Image of iplaudius iplaudius
    12/16/09

    In reply to Bill Keller Response Response Response Response!
    "It did not 'disparage' or 'cast aspersions' on the series itself, which many of us at The Times admired as an example of the in-depth reporting the Journal used to do with some regularity."

    Conservatives just can’t write shit like this.
     Reply
    iplaudius was starred iplaudius was unstarred
    Image of daveyjonesisdead daveyjonesisdead
    12/16/09

    In reply to Bill Keller Response Response Response Response!
    Oh snap!

    Huh?
     Reply
    daveyjonesisdead was starred daveyjonesisdead was unstarred
    Image of thatgirlinnewyork thatgirlinnewyork
    12/14/09

    In reply to Never First
    whiner. "new york used to be allll ewwww, dirty and edgy. now it's clean and people are niiice. what did they do to the city i haaaate so much. loook at my videooo homage!" we have better shrinks here--engage one for your complex.
     Reply
    thatgirlinnewyork was starred thatgirlinnewyork was unstarred
    Image of lobstr lobstr
    12/14/09

    In reply to Never First
    As a resident of Texas I am completely objective to this war, though I've been to NYC about 100x, and never Chicago until one visit in 2005. A friend of mine was moving to work at Glacier in Montana and I rode with him on Amtrak and chilled with him for three days in Chicago before he continued. We stayed at a friend's pretty awesome highrise condo in downtown, and I was willing to give this town a chance with an objective open heart.

    Cool, ok, where's the subway? Oh, ok, it's raised, whatever. Where does it go? Hm.. not exactly all over. .. ok, fuck it, we'll go to Chinatown. BZZT. You call this one block with those Chinese arch bookends and one joint with some ducks in the window a Chinatown? Canal Street is an hour of walking by dim sum and tchochke shops, this was some one-block bullshit.

    Went up into the Sears Tower. Really? The most awesome building is some ominous black glass 1970s architecture?

    I know this is the quintessential Chi vs NY argument but THEY PUT BROCCOLI AND SHIT ON THEIR PIZZA. Pizza should not require silverware.

    And the nightlife. Holy shit, it's a Friday night, walking around downtown, cold as shit, there was nothing open. You may say "oh you were in the wrong part of downtown", but uh, even if you're lost in Manhattan on a Friday night, you simply turn your head in both directions and will find some shit going on.

    It's not nearly as charming of a town and does not have the awesome history NYC has. C'mon. Statue of Liberty. Bite it, Chicago.

    Yee haw.
     Reply
    lobstr was starred lobstr was unstarred
    Image of A Message To Rudy A Message To Rudy
    12/15/09

    @lobstr: You live in Texas (not even one of the major cities since you didn't bother to mention it), so that nullifes your opinion. sorry.
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy was starred A Message To Rudy was unstarred
    Image of A Message To Rudy A Message To Rudy
    12/15/09

    @lobstr: And every place you mentioned is downtown which is where unadventerous tourists hang out. Glad you stayed in that area and didn't venture out and bother the REAL Chicagoans
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy was starred A Message To Rudy was unstarred
    Image of lobstr lobstr
    12/16/09

    @A Message To Rudy: Uh, what? Ok.. I live in Fort Worth, for which DFW ranks the #4 largest metro area in the nation.. how is that relevant at all? And how does my omission of that somehow imply I don't live in a major city? Dumb.

    But the implication that size of the location of the observer somehow matters is a douchebag out for you to use. Consequently, then, according to your logic, NYC is better than Chicago purely because it's 4 times larger. Sorry indeed.
     Reply
    lobstr was starred lobstr was unstarred
    Image of lobstr lobstr
    12/16/09

    @A Message To Rudy: Trust me, honey, I saw the town for what it was worth... strayed as far north as Lincoln Park and Hyde Park to the south, Little Italy to the west. And downtown was hardly touristy, it was just bland and uninteresting. As a whole, it simply does not compare.

    Now, you, clearly being from Chicago or a fan of Chicago need not take this personally.. this was all simply the objective opinion of a visitor. However, your attitude makes me thankful that I didn't encounter any of these suburban "Real Chicagoans" as you say.. sounds really obnoxious and something that would have probably worsened my experience.

    Alas, I'm not going to get into a spat about people vs people, but one thing I do appreciate about NY is that "real New Yorkers" do have character.

    You've never been, have you? :[]
     Reply
    lobstr was starred lobstr was unstarred
    Image of A Message To Rudy A Message To Rudy
    11:49 AM

    @lobstr: I was BORN in NYC genius. So yeah, I've been there and continued to go there.
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy was starred A Message To Rudy was unstarred
    Image of A Message To Rudy A Message To Rudy
    11:50 AM

    @lobstr: Fort Worth? Are you kidding? And you only went as far north as Lincoln Park? LOL. Yeah, thanks for verifying what I said.
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy was starred A Message To Rudy was unstarred
    Image of lobstr lobstr
    12:09 PM

    @A Message To Rudy: k, with the nonsensical "LuLZ", what the fuck does where *I* live have to do with how horrible your shitty town is? You're like a kid on a playground.. "Yeah? Well, you live in a small house, so your opinion is shit!" Why don't you tell me what's great about Chicago rather than trying to vaguely and arrogantly sneer at where I live, enforcing the notion that these "real Chicagoans" are horrible douchebags to be avoided at all cost? Jesus, you seriously suck horribly at discussion.
     Reply
    lobstr was starred lobstr was unstarred
    Image of lobstr lobstr
    12:14 PM

    @A Message To Rudy: oh, and, um.. Why on earth would a visitor venture father past Lincoln Park? Are we supposed to venture up to Skokie to see this coveted "real Chicago"? No thanks.

    People in NY don't chide visitors because they didn't check out Pelham or the Far Rockaways.. all the cool shit is right there, easily accessible.

    And still, you've yet to give a firm argument for why Chicago is awesome, instead going the "LOLZ, my penis is bigger than yours" route. Good on ya, chap.
     Reply
    lobstr was starred lobstr was unstarred
    Image of Seeräuber Jenny Seeräuber Jenny
    12/14/09

    In reply to Never First
    For me, the definition of a great city is that you can be on your own, not know a soul, and still have a great time because there are tons of things to do. And you don't need a car.

    Chicago does not meet that definition.

    I've walked around Chicago's downtown a couple of times. It didn't take that long. I looked at the Lake. Then I wondered which was Oprah's apartment in the Four Seasons. I would have caught a flick, but I'd seen all the movies at the multiplex. The shopping was the same as New York, except their Saks wasn't as varied as the NYC Saks.

    New York meets the test of a great city. So do Paris, Rome, and Florence. I've never been to London or Berlin, Madrid, or Barcelona, but I'm sure they do, too.
     Reply
    Seeräuber Jenny was starred Seeräuber Jenny was unstarred
    Image of pumpkinsoup pumpkinsoup
    12/14/09

    @Seeräuber Jenny: Obviously, if you stick to the Loop or Michigan Avenue you're going to miss out on some great neighborhoods like Wicker Park, Bucktown, Lincoln Park, Wrigleyville, Boys Town, Andersonville, etc. All accessible by the CTA. You can get to Wicker Park via the Blue Line in ten minutes.
     Reply
    pumpkinsoup was starred pumpkinsoup was unstarred
    Image of thatgirlinnewyork thatgirlinnewyork
    12/14/09

    @pumpkinsoup: that is, if mta is solvent and the blue line is operating. in other words, not likely.
     Reply
    thatgirlinnewyork was starred thatgirlinnewyork was unstarred
    Image of pumpkinsoup pumpkinsoup
    12/15/09

    @thatgirlinnewyork: Are you talking about the MTA or the CTA (Chicago Transit Authority), because I'm talking about the CTA. I'm not sure if the CTA is necessarily financially sound, but it is running. And yes, the Blue Line operates daily.
     Reply
    pumpkinsoup was starred pumpkinsoup was unstarred
    Image of thatgirlinnewyork thatgirlinnewyork
    12/15/09

    @pumpkinsoup: sorry--force of habit. i meant the famed CTA, of course. and no, they haven't been financially sound in a long time. the car culture still rules there (in spite of that nifty bike garage).
     Reply
    thatgirlinnewyork was starred thatgirlinnewyork was unstarred
    Image of A Message To Rudy A Message To Rudy
    12/15/09

    @thatgirlinnewyork: You don't need a car to get around in Chicago and no person who visited here for a few days is going to have a valid obervation on that subject. You just can't. Sorry.
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy was starred A Message To Rudy was unstarred
    Image of thatgirlinnewyork thatgirlinnewyork
    12/15/09

    @A Message To Rudy: i know that one doesn't need a car, but most people have them anyway. i was born there, have family there. don't assume so much.
     Reply
    thatgirlinnewyork was starred thatgirlinnewyork was unstarred
    Image of Aatom Aatom
    12/14/09

    In reply to Never First
    This is some sort of Dave Barry wannabe fluff. I can't believe I read the whole thing.
     Reply
    Aatom was starred Aatom was unstarred
    Image of VoxPopuli VoxPopuli
    12/14/09

    In reply to Never First
    Actually Chicago is always third - Los Angeles is bigger and has way more influence on American culture for better or worse.
    Second city? Quit jumping the line, Chicago.
     Reply
    VoxPopuli was starred VoxPopuli was unstarred
    Image of NotSafeForLife NotSafeForLife
    12/14/09

    In reply to Never First
    One of the commenters over there said it best: to write this article is to lose the argument.
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy promoted this comment NotSafeForLife was starred NotSafeForLife was unstarred
    Image of A Message To Rudy A Message To Rudy
    12/14/09

    @NotSafeForLife: And to acknowledge it is to give it validity.
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy was starred A Message To Rudy was unstarred
    Image of Bos'un's Mate Bos'un's Mate
    12/14/09

    In reply to Never First
    This must be the week's obligatory 'meh' post.
     Reply
    Edited by Bos'un's Mate at 12/14/09 4:44 PM Bos'un's Mate was starred Bos'un's Mate was unstarred
    Image of Understater Understater
    12/14/09

    In reply to Never First
    I've never been to Chicago, but this comparison feels obsolete. NYC is a world-class city; Chicago is...where Oprah lives?
     Reply
    Edited by Understater at 12/14/09 4:39 PM Understater was starred Understater was unstarred
    Image of pooks pooks
    12/14/09

    @Understater: Having lived in both places, I can safely say that Chicago is a lot like NYC, except... it's clean.
     Reply
    Niko Bellic promoted this comment pooks was starred pooks was unstarred
    Image of Niko Bellic Niko Bellic
    12/14/09

    @pooks: Chicago is a lot like NYC, except... it's clean.

    Chicago is a lot like like Queens, except... it's clean.
     Reply
    Edited by Niko Bellic at 12/14/09 5:26 PM Niko Bellic was starred Niko Bellic was unstarred
    Image of D2theMatthews D2theMatthews
    12/14/09

    @pooks: That's because there are alleys. If we could hide our trash in the alley in New York, things would look a lot nicer.
     Reply
    D2theMatthews was starred D2theMatthews was unstarred
    Image of Kitten_Witawip Kitten_Witawip
    12/14/09

    @pooks: And does not smell like urine.
     Reply
    Understater promoted this comment Kitten_Witawip was starred Kitten_Witawip was unstarred
    Image of Understater Understater
    12/14/09

    @Kitten_Witawip: No, but it's full of fat people.
     Reply
    Understater was starred Understater was unstarred
    Image of Kitten_Witawip Kitten_Witawip
    12/14/09

    @Understater: Fat people who pee at home.
     Reply
    Kitten_Witawip was starred Kitten_Witawip was unstarred
    Image of tehcutie tehcutie
    12/14/09

    @pooks: To be serious, Chicago and NYC differ on a crucial point: city planning. Yes, wealthy parts of Chicago may be clean (and I do find the architecture in parts of the city's to be very beautiful), but Chicago will never supersede NY because of this fundamental difference: they concentrated all the public housing in a single area (whereas in NY, it's spread out). This has created a lot of problems, as you can imagine.
     Reply
    pumpkinsoup promoted this comment tehcutie was starred tehcutie was unstarred
    Image of pumpkinsoup pumpkinsoup
    12/14/09

    @tehcutie:The giant public housing projects that Chicago became notorious for in the 60s, 70s and 80s are at least a decade gone. Cabrini-Green is now a mixture of mixed income townhouses, retail (Borders, Whole Foods, Pottery Barn) and public land (there's a Cubs Cares little league park ball park built to resemble a mini-Wrigley Field where one of the high-rises stood). Ditto for the giant Robert Taylor Homes complex on the near South Side (not as affluent but still gone).

    I think all Chicagoans would heartily agree that those giant public housing complexes were an unmitigated disaster.
     Reply
    Edited by pumpkinsoup at 12/14/09 9:58 PM pumpkinsoup was starred pumpkinsoup was unstarred
    Image of tehcutie tehcutie
    12/14/09

    @pumpkinsoup: I don't know, I got the sense that Chicago seemed pretty segregated by wealth, not helped by their train system, but I was only there for a weekend so... I'd still rather live there than anywhere on the West Coast though! ;)

    #tips
     Reply
    tehcutie was starred tehcutie was unstarred
    Image of thatgirlinnewyork thatgirlinnewyork
    12/14/09

    @pumpkinsoup: yes, making cabrini green look like schaumburg (including its mall) is such a great argument. as you said, chicago isn't just downtown/near north, so when one goes a wee bit south, west, or north, they can see plenty of unfortunate-looking public housing, a transportation system that few use in favor of their cars, and a once-genteel main thoroughfare that looks like...a mall. progress!
     Reply
    thatgirlinnewyork was starred thatgirlinnewyork was unstarred
    Image of pumpkinsoup pumpkinsoup
    12/15/09

    @tehcutie: I'm not saying Chicago isn't segragated, but you specifically mentioned Chicago's large public housing projects and how that has created problems. I was just pointing out that those projects are for the most part long gone.
     Reply
    Edited by pumpkinsoup at 12/15/09 12:17 AM pumpkinsoup was starred pumpkinsoup was unstarred
    Image of tehcutie tehcutie
    12/15/09

    @pumpkinsoup: Er, wouldn't this be an enduring consequence of housing projects, even if they are a decade gone? Regardless, though, I wasn't meaning to pick a fight. I've only been to Chi-town once, and I did get a great impression of it.
     Reply
    tehcutie was starred tehcutie was unstarred
    Image of pumpkinsoup pumpkinsoup
    12/15/09

    @thatgirlinnewyork: We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Sure, there have been issues with relocating the residents who were displaced when they tore down the apartment blocks that made up Cabrini-Green, but I don't have issues with the big box types stores that were built in its place. I think it is progress, yes. For one thing, there are two large grocery stores where there were none before.

    Yes, there are a smattering of high rises left around Henry Horner and Robert Taylor, but I believe those are eventually going to be demo-ed. Correct me if I'm wrong though. I could be talking about of my ass!

    And I don't buy your conjecture that residents don't use public transportation. Parking downtown is ridiculously expensive. At least I've never been able to afford it.
     Reply
    Edited by pumpkinsoup at 12/15/09 12:37 AM pumpkinsoup was starred pumpkinsoup was unstarred
    Image of pumpkinsoup pumpkinsoup
    12/15/09

    @tehcutie: No worries. I didn't mean to sound like I was picking a fight either.
     Reply
    pumpkinsoup was starred pumpkinsoup was unstarred
    Image of thatgirlinnewyork thatgirlinnewyork
    12/15/09

    @pumpkinsoup: unfortunately, that development means horrifying traffic snarls for that area, particularly around north/halsted/elston. this was also a matter of thousands of people displaced, which is never popular with them. as for public transportation, it simply isn't supported by the vast marjority of people, which makes it difficult to fund, which makes the service spotty, which makes it difficult to support. very unfortunate for the average person.
     Reply
    thatgirlinnewyork was starred thatgirlinnewyork was unstarred
    Image of RollsRoyceRevenge RollsRoyceRevenge
    12/14/09

    In reply to Never First
    Reasons to hate Chicago.

    It's really windy.
    It's Midwestern.
    Something something something fat people.
    It's on a lake.
    It has an elevated train.
    More fat people.
    Snow...something to do with snow.
    Fat snow...men?
    Windy windy?
    Wendy?
     Reply
    RollsRoyceRevenge was starred RollsRoyceRevenge was unstarred
    Image of BitchyD BitchyD
    12/14/09

    @RollsRoyceRevenge: Don't forget about what they insist is pizza.
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy promoted this comment Edited by BitchyD at 12/14/09 4:38 PM BitchyD was starred BitchyD was unstarred
    Image of RedLineRage RedLineRage
    12/14/09

    @RollsRoyceRevenge: It's really not that windy...
     Reply
    D2theMatthews promoted this comment RedLineRage was starred RedLineRage was unstarred
    Image of D2theMatthews D2theMatthews
    12/14/09

    @RedLineRage: It isn't. I am from there and live in Brooklyn now, and I honestly think that New York is windier. The Windy City business comes from our politicians being full of it. And Chicago machine politics is way funnier than New York's.
     Reply
    D2theMatthews was starred D2theMatthews was unstarred
    Image of A Message To Rudy A Message To Rudy
    12/14/09

    @BitchyD: No, it's what TOURISTS like New Yorkers insist is pizza. Most real Chicagoans eat their obligatory one slice at birth and then toss that crap aside. Only tourists keep that myth alive.

    Now about that eating food from dirty strangers in carts on the street...
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy was starred A Message To Rudy was unstarred
    Image of BitchyD BitchyD
    12/14/09

    @A Message To Rudy: Tourists, Food network and Pizzeria Uno. As for the hot dogs they're good and cheap. If you frequent the vendor you become friendly aquaintances.
     Reply
    Edited by BitchyD at 12/14/09 5:49 PM BitchyD was starred BitchyD was unstarred
    Image of RedLineRage RedLineRage
    12/14/09

    @D2theMatthews: I live here now, and the political machine is hilarious. It's like a trainwreck, but all the people injured totally deserve it.
     Reply
    RedLineRage was starred RedLineRage was unstarred
    Image of pumpkinsoup pumpkinsoup
    12/14/09

    @A Message To Rudy: A part of me dies every time a friend or relative who visits me Chicago asks to go to Pizzeria Uno. I just tell them to go on without me.

    Even funnier, I went to school in Ann Arbor, and there was a Pizzeria Uno two blocks from the Michigan campus. So when I moved to Chicago after I thought Pizzeria Uno? Big Whoop.
     Reply
    Edited by pumpkinsoup at 12/14/09 9:59 PM pumpkinsoup was starred pumpkinsoup was unstarred
    Image of thatgirlinnewyork thatgirlinnewyork
    12/14/09

    @RollsRoyceRevenge: racism a-go go
     Reply
    thatgirlinnewyork was starred thatgirlinnewyork was unstarred
    Image of thatgirlinnewyork thatgirlinnewyork
    12/14/09

    @pumpkinsoup: so what would constitute good pizza there? gino's? giordano's? o'fame? lou malnati's? connie's?
     Reply
    thatgirlinnewyork was starred thatgirlinnewyork was unstarred
    Image of pumpkinsoup pumpkinsoup
    12/15/09

    @thatgirlinnewyork: I actually don't like pizza all that much. Should I revoke my Chicago citizenship papers now?

    I've never heard of o'fame.
     Reply
    pumpkinsoup was starred pumpkinsoup was unstarred
    Image of RollsRoyceRevenge RollsRoyceRevenge
    12/15/09

    @thatgirlinnewyork: What the fuck?
     Reply
    RollsRoyceRevenge was starred RollsRoyceRevenge was unstarred
    Image of A Message To Rudy A Message To Rudy
    12/15/09

    @thatgirlinnewyork: Try this, for one:[spaccanapolipizzeria.com]

    Or this place in Chicago's Andersonville, which GQ called the best pizza in the COUNTRY:
    [leisureblogs.chicagotribune.com]

    As for all the other places you listed...those are for the tourists.
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy was starred A Message To Rudy was unstarred
    Image of RedLineRage RedLineRage
    12/15/09

    @A Message To Rudy: That place is right down the street from me! I guess I should check it out...
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy promoted this comment RedLineRage was starred RedLineRage was unstarred
    Image of A Message To Rudy A Message To Rudy
    12/15/09

    @RedLineRage: If you mean the one in Andersonville, good luck with that. Advice: Get there early (a la Kuma's or Hot Doug's) and prepare to wait. They owners insist on taking their time. As for the raves, I can't vouch for it. Never been there and I'm not doing the wait-in-line-for-hours thing anymore. Check out this Trib article:
    [archives.chicagotribune.com]
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy was starred A Message To Rudy was unstarred
    Image of RedLineRage RedLineRage
    12/15/09

    @A Message To Rudy: You know, I walk by that place all the time, and I've never seen a line out the door. Maybe the crowds have died down a bit.
     Reply
    RedLineRage was starred RedLineRage was unstarred
    Image of A Message To Rudy A Message To Rudy
    12/15/09

    @thatgirlinnewyork: Yeah, stuff like controversial clashes over race NEVER happen in NYC.

    So, um, did they ever solve that whole Tawana Brawley thing yet? What about that cop shooting, you know, the one where the white cop shot the black cop because he thought he was a crook?[www.timesonline.co.uk]
    But seriously, glad to see NYC got over that whole race problem. I hear Howard Beach is lovely this time of year.
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy was starred A Message To Rudy was unstarred
    Image of leniribbons leniribbons
    12/14/09

    In reply to Never First
    This is the same as the Bard-Vassar rivalry. No one at Vassar knows about it because they're so obviously the winner. Inferiority complexes are adorable.
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy promoted this comment leniribbons was starred leniribbons was unstarred
    Image of A Message To Rudy A Message To Rudy
    12/14/09

    @leniribbons: Sorry, not the same. NYCers are obviously aware of it, hence this post. If it were nothing to consider, it wouldn't even be here, correct? Inferiority is one thing, constantly needing reassurance is another...
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy was starred A Message To Rudy was unstarred
    Image of Thoidythoidnthoid Thoidythoidnthoid
    12/14/09

    In reply to WSJ Editor: 'Principle Is But a Bystander at The New York Times'
    The sad truth is that Carr's column went way too easy on the WSJ. He didn't get into deeper cheesification of that once-great newspaper: giant, overzealous headlines that aren't commensurate with the often small-bore news in the stories below; a fixation with generic, wire-images you'd expect to see in a free weekly like Metro; the tabloidification of the photo editing -- ever notice how all the women in WSJ "news photos" are now strikingly attractive? Or the "if it bleeds, it leads" mentality of the photos? (See: today's absurdly large front page image of a bloodied Berlusconi.)

    But also -- when you take into account the monster headlines, those big, low-rent photos and all the white space on the pages, what's left? Not much. Journal stories are so much thinner than before, and it's increasingly rare that you get the kind of detailed and thoughtful analysis -- let alone skepticism -- of the Street that made that paper a must-read for anyone engaged in capitalism. Also the idea that the editor of the WSJ would take the occasion of a David Carr media column to attack Bill Keller is especially rich. Apparently he's getting his lessons in nuance from Bill O'Reilly, Glen Beck and the Fox News p.r. department. That says plenty.
     Reply
    Mediahohoho promoted this comment Thoidythoidnthoid was starred Thoidythoidnthoid was unstarred
    Image of A Message To Rudy A Message To Rudy
    12/14/09

    In reply to WSJ Editor: 'Principle Is But a Bystander at The New York Times'
    Since when did Colin Hay take over as editor of the Wall Street Journal?

    "I come from a paper that going un-duh..."
     Reply
    A Message To Rudy was starred A Message To Rudy was unstarred
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