"It did not 'disparage' or 'cast aspersions' on the series itself, which many of us at The Times admired as an example of the in-depth reporting the Journal used to do with some regularity."
whiner. "new york used to be allll ewwww, dirty and edgy. now it's clean and people are niiice. what did they do to the city i haaaate so much. loook at my videooo homage!" we have better shrinks here--engage one for your complex.
As a resident of Texas I am completely objective to this war, though I've been to NYC about 100x, and never Chicago until one visit in 2005. A friend of mine was moving to work at Glacier in Montana and I rode with him on Amtrak and chilled with him for three days in Chicago before he continued. We stayed at a friend's pretty awesome highrise condo in downtown, and I was willing to give this town a chance with an objective open heart.
Cool, ok, where's the subway? Oh, ok, it's raised, whatever. Where does it go? Hm.. not exactly all over. .. ok, fuck it, we'll go to Chinatown. BZZT. You call this one block with those Chinese arch bookends and one joint with some ducks in the window a Chinatown? Canal Street is an hour of walking by dim sum and tchochke shops, this was some one-block bullshit.
Went up into the Sears Tower. Really? The most awesome building is some ominous black glass 1970s architecture?
I know this is the quintessential Chi vs NY argument but THEY PUT BROCCOLI AND SHIT ON THEIR PIZZA. Pizza should not require silverware.
And the nightlife. Holy shit, it's a Friday night, walking around downtown, cold as shit, there was nothing open. You may say "oh you were in the wrong part of downtown", but uh, even if you're lost in Manhattan on a Friday night, you simply turn your head in both directions and will find some shit going on.
It's not nearly as charming of a town and does not have the awesome history NYC has. C'mon. Statue of Liberty. Bite it, Chicago.
@lobstr: And every place you mentioned is downtown which is where unadventerous tourists hang out. Glad you stayed in that area and didn't venture out and bother the REAL Chicagoans
@A Message To Rudy: Uh, what? Ok.. I live in Fort Worth, for which DFW ranks the #4 largest metro area in the nation.. how is that relevant at all? And how does my omission of that somehow imply I don't live in a major city? Dumb.
But the implication that size of the location of the observer somehow matters is a douchebag out for you to use. Consequently, then, according to your logic, NYC is better than Chicago purely because it's 4 times larger. Sorry indeed.
@A Message To Rudy: Trust me, honey, I saw the town for what it was worth... strayed as far north as Lincoln Park and Hyde Park to the south, Little Italy to the west. And downtown was hardly touristy, it was just bland and uninteresting. As a whole, it simply does not compare.
Now, you, clearly being from Chicago or a fan of Chicago need not take this personally.. this was all simply the objective opinion of a visitor. However, your attitude makes me thankful that I didn't encounter any of these suburban "Real Chicagoans" as you say.. sounds really obnoxious and something that would have probably worsened my experience.
Alas, I'm not going to get into a spat about people vs people, but one thing I do appreciate about NY is that "real New Yorkers" do have character.
@A Message To Rudy: k, with the nonsensical "LuLZ", what the fuck does where *I* live have to do with how horrible your shitty town is? You're like a kid on a playground.. "Yeah? Well, you live in a small house, so your opinion is shit!" Why don't you tell me what's great about Chicago rather than trying to vaguely and arrogantly sneer at where I live, enforcing the notion that these "real Chicagoans" are horrible douchebags to be avoided at all cost? Jesus, you seriously suck horribly at discussion.
@A Message To Rudy: oh, and, um.. Why on earth would a visitor venture father past Lincoln Park? Are we supposed to venture up to Skokie to see this coveted "real Chicago"? No thanks.
People in NY don't chide visitors because they didn't check out Pelham or the Far Rockaways.. all the cool shit is right there, easily accessible.
And still, you've yet to give a firm argument for why Chicago is awesome, instead going the "LOLZ, my penis is bigger than yours" route. Good on ya, chap.
For me, the definition of a great city is that you can be on your own, not know a soul, and still have a great time because there are tons of things to do. And you don't need a car.
Chicago does not meet that definition.
I've walked around Chicago's downtown a couple of times. It didn't take that long. I looked at the Lake. Then I wondered which was Oprah's apartment in the Four Seasons. I would have caught a flick, but I'd seen all the movies at the multiplex. The shopping was the same as New York, except their Saks wasn't as varied as the NYC Saks.
New York meets the test of a great city. So do Paris, Rome, and Florence. I've never been to London or Berlin, Madrid, or Barcelona, but I'm sure they do, too.
@Seeräuber Jenny: Obviously, if you stick to the Loop or Michigan Avenue you're going to miss out on some great neighborhoods like Wicker Park, Bucktown, Lincoln Park, Wrigleyville, Boys Town, Andersonville, etc. All accessible by the CTA. You can get to Wicker Park via the Blue Line in ten minutes.
@thatgirlinnewyork: Are you talking about the MTA or the CTA (Chicago Transit Authority), because I'm talking about the CTA. I'm not sure if the CTA is necessarily financially sound, but it is running. And yes, the Blue Line operates daily.
@pumpkinsoup: sorry--force of habit. i meant the famed CTA, of course. and no, they haven't been financially sound in a long time. the car culture still rules there (in spite of that nifty bike garage).
@thatgirlinnewyork: You don't need a car to get around in Chicago and no person who visited here for a few days is going to have a valid obervation on that subject. You just can't. Sorry.
Actually Chicago is always third - Los Angeles is bigger and has way more influence on American culture for better or worse.
Second city? Quit jumping the line, Chicago.
@pooks: To be serious, Chicago and NYC differ on a crucial point: city planning. Yes, wealthy parts of Chicago may be clean (and I do find the architecture in parts of the city's to be very beautiful), but Chicago will never supersede NY because of this fundamental difference: they concentrated all the public housing in a single area (whereas in NY, it's spread out). This has created a lot of problems, as you can imagine.
@tehcutie:The giant public housing projects that Chicago became notorious for in the 60s, 70s and 80s are at least a decade gone. Cabrini-Green is now a mixture of mixed income townhouses, retail (Borders, Whole Foods, Pottery Barn) and public land (there's a Cubs Cares little league park ball park built to resemble a mini-Wrigley Field where one of the high-rises stood). Ditto for the giant Robert Taylor Homes complex on the near South Side (not as affluent but still gone).
I think all Chicagoans would heartily agree that those giant public housing complexes were an unmitigated disaster.
@pumpkinsoup: I don't know, I got the sense that Chicago seemed pretty segregated by wealth, not helped by their train system, but I was only there for a weekend so... I'd still rather live there than anywhere on the West Coast though! ;)
@pumpkinsoup: yes, making cabrini green look like schaumburg (including its mall) is such a great argument. as you said, chicago isn't just downtown/near north, so when one goes a wee bit south, west, or north, they can see plenty of unfortunate-looking public housing, a transportation system that few use in favor of their cars, and a once-genteel main thoroughfare that looks like...a mall. progress!
@tehcutie: I'm not saying Chicago isn't segragated, but you specifically mentioned Chicago's large public housing projects and how that has created problems. I was just pointing out that those projects are for the most part long gone.
@pumpkinsoup: Er, wouldn't this be an enduring consequence of housing projects, even if they are a decade gone? Regardless, though, I wasn't meaning to pick a fight. I've only been to Chi-town once, and I did get a great impression of it.
@thatgirlinnewyork: We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Sure, there have been issues with relocating the residents who were displaced when they tore down the apartment blocks that made up Cabrini-Green, but I don't have issues with the big box types stores that were built in its place. I think it is progress, yes. For one thing, there are two large grocery stores where there were none before.
Yes, there are a smattering of high rises left around Henry Horner and Robert Taylor, but I believe those are eventually going to be demo-ed. Correct me if I'm wrong though. I could be talking about of my ass!
And I don't buy your conjecture that residents don't use public transportation. Parking downtown is ridiculously expensive. At least I've never been able to afford it.
@pumpkinsoup: unfortunately, that development means horrifying traffic snarls for that area, particularly around north/halsted/elston. this was also a matter of thousands of people displaced, which is never popular with them. as for public transportation, it simply isn't supported by the vast marjority of people, which makes it difficult to fund, which makes the service spotty, which makes it difficult to support. very unfortunate for the average person.
It's really windy.
It's Midwestern.
Something something something fat people.
It's on a lake.
It has an elevated train.
More fat people.
Snow...something to do with snow.
Fat snow...men?
Windy windy?
Wendy?
@RedLineRage: It isn't. I am from there and live in Brooklyn now, and I honestly think that New York is windier. The Windy City business comes from our politicians being full of it. And Chicago machine politics is way funnier than New York's.
@BitchyD: No, it's what TOURISTS like New Yorkers insist is pizza. Most real Chicagoans eat their obligatory one slice at birth and then toss that crap aside. Only tourists keep that myth alive.
Now about that eating food from dirty strangers in carts on the street...
@A Message To Rudy: Tourists, Food network and Pizzeria Uno. As for the hot dogs they're good and cheap. If you frequent the vendor you become friendly aquaintances.
@A Message To Rudy: A part of me dies every time a friend or relative who visits me Chicago asks to go to Pizzeria Uno. I just tell them to go on without me.
Even funnier, I went to school in Ann Arbor, and there was a Pizzeria Uno two blocks from the Michigan campus. So when I moved to Chicago after I thought Pizzeria Uno? Big Whoop.
@RedLineRage: If you mean the one in Andersonville, good luck with that. Advice: Get there early (a la Kuma's or Hot Doug's) and prepare to wait. They owners insist on taking their time. As for the raves, I can't vouch for it. Never been there and I'm not doing the wait-in-line-for-hours thing anymore. Check out this Trib article: [archives.chicagotribune.com]
@thatgirlinnewyork: Yeah, stuff like controversial clashes over race NEVER happen in NYC.
So, um, did they ever solve that whole Tawana Brawley thing yet? What about that cop shooting, you know, the one where the white cop shot the black cop because he thought he was a crook?[www.timesonline.co.uk]
But seriously, glad to see NYC got over that whole race problem. I hear Howard Beach is lovely this time of year.
This is the same as the Bard-Vassar rivalry. No one at Vassar knows about it because they're so obviously the winner. Inferiority complexes are adorable.
@leniribbons: Sorry, not the same. NYCers are obviously aware of it, hence this post. If it were nothing to consider, it wouldn't even be here, correct? Inferiority is one thing, constantly needing reassurance is another...
The sad truth is that Carr's column went way too easy on the WSJ. He didn't get into deeper cheesification of that once-great newspaper: giant, overzealous headlines that aren't commensurate with the often small-bore news in the stories below; a fixation with generic, wire-images you'd expect to see in a free weekly like Metro; the tabloidification of the photo editing -- ever notice how all the women in WSJ "news photos" are now strikingly attractive? Or the "if it bleeds, it leads" mentality of the photos? (See: today's absurdly large front page image of a bloodied Berlusconi.)
But also -- when you take into account the monster headlines, those big, low-rent photos and all the white space on the pages, what's left? Not much. Journal stories are so much thinner than before, and it's increasingly rare that you get the kind of detailed and thoughtful analysis -- let alone skepticism -- of the Street that made that paper a must-read for anyone engaged in capitalism. Also the idea that the editor of the WSJ would take the occasion of a David Carr media column to attack Bill Keller is especially rich. Apparently he's getting his lessons in nuance from Bill O'Reilly, Glen Beck and the Fox News p.r. department. That says plenty.
12/16/09
12/16/09
Conservatives just can’t write shit like this.
12/16/09
Huh?
12/14/09
12/14/09
Cool, ok, where's the subway? Oh, ok, it's raised, whatever. Where does it go? Hm.. not exactly all over. .. ok, fuck it, we'll go to Chinatown. BZZT. You call this one block with those Chinese arch bookends and one joint with some ducks in the window a Chinatown? Canal Street is an hour of walking by dim sum and tchochke shops, this was some one-block bullshit.
Went up into the Sears Tower. Really? The most awesome building is some ominous black glass 1970s architecture?
I know this is the quintessential Chi vs NY argument but THEY PUT BROCCOLI AND SHIT ON THEIR PIZZA. Pizza should not require silverware.
And the nightlife. Holy shit, it's a Friday night, walking around downtown, cold as shit, there was nothing open. You may say "oh you were in the wrong part of downtown", but uh, even if you're lost in Manhattan on a Friday night, you simply turn your head in both directions and will find some shit going on.
It's not nearly as charming of a town and does not have the awesome history NYC has. C'mon. Statue of Liberty. Bite it, Chicago.
Yee haw.
12/15/09
12/15/09
12/16/09
But the implication that size of the location of the observer somehow matters is a douchebag out for you to use. Consequently, then, according to your logic, NYC is better than Chicago purely because it's 4 times larger. Sorry indeed.
12/16/09
Now, you, clearly being from Chicago or a fan of Chicago need not take this personally.. this was all simply the objective opinion of a visitor. However, your attitude makes me thankful that I didn't encounter any of these suburban "Real Chicagoans" as you say.. sounds really obnoxious and something that would have probably worsened my experience.
Alas, I'm not going to get into a spat about people vs people, but one thing I do appreciate about NY is that "real New Yorkers" do have character.
You've never been, have you? :[]
12/17/09
12/17/09
12/17/09
12/17/09
People in NY don't chide visitors because they didn't check out Pelham or the Far Rockaways.. all the cool shit is right there, easily accessible.
And still, you've yet to give a firm argument for why Chicago is awesome, instead going the "LOLZ, my penis is bigger than yours" route. Good on ya, chap.
12/14/09
Chicago does not meet that definition.
I've walked around Chicago's downtown a couple of times. It didn't take that long. I looked at the Lake. Then I wondered which was Oprah's apartment in the Four Seasons. I would have caught a flick, but I'd seen all the movies at the multiplex. The shopping was the same as New York, except their Saks wasn't as varied as the NYC Saks.
New York meets the test of a great city. So do Paris, Rome, and Florence. I've never been to London or Berlin, Madrid, or Barcelona, but I'm sure they do, too.
12/14/09
12/14/09
12/15/09
12/15/09
12/15/09
12/15/09
12/14/09
12/14/09
Second city? Quit jumping the line, Chicago.
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Chicago is a lot like like Queens, except... it's clean.
12/14/09
12/14/09
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12/14/09
I think all Chicagoans would heartily agree that those giant public housing complexes were an unmitigated disaster.
12/14/09
#tips
12/14/09
12/15/09
12/15/09
12/15/09
Yes, there are a smattering of high rises left around Henry Horner and Robert Taylor, but I believe those are eventually going to be demo-ed. Correct me if I'm wrong though. I could be talking about of my ass!
And I don't buy your conjecture that residents don't use public transportation. Parking downtown is ridiculously expensive. At least I've never been able to afford it.
12/15/09
12/15/09
12/14/09
It's really windy.
It's Midwestern.
Something something something fat people.
It's on a lake.
It has an elevated train.
More fat people.
Snow...something to do with snow.
Fat snow...men?
Windy windy?
Wendy?
12/14/09
12/14/09
12/14/09
12/14/09
Now about that eating food from dirty strangers in carts on the street...
12/14/09
12/14/09
12/14/09
Even funnier, I went to school in Ann Arbor, and there was a Pizzeria Uno two blocks from the Michigan campus. So when I moved to Chicago after I thought Pizzeria Uno? Big Whoop.
12/14/09
12/14/09
12/15/09
I've never heard of o'fame.
12/15/09
12/15/09
Or this place in Chicago's Andersonville, which GQ called the best pizza in the COUNTRY:
[leisureblogs.chicagotribune.com]
As for all the other places you listed...those are for the tourists.
12/15/09
12/15/09
[archives.chicagotribune.com]
12/15/09
12/15/09
So, um, did they ever solve that whole Tawana Brawley thing yet? What about that cop shooting, you know, the one where the white cop shot the black cop because he thought he was a crook?[www.timesonline.co.uk]
But seriously, glad to see NYC got over that whole race problem. I hear Howard Beach is lovely this time of year.
12/14/09
12/14/09
12/14/09
But also -- when you take into account the monster headlines, those big, low-rent photos and all the white space on the pages, what's left? Not much. Journal stories are so much thinner than before, and it's increasingly rare that you get the kind of detailed and thoughtful analysis -- let alone skepticism -- of the Street that made that paper a must-read for anyone engaged in capitalism. Also the idea that the editor of the WSJ would take the occasion of a David Carr media column to attack Bill Keller is especially rich. Apparently he's getting his lessons in nuance from Bill O'Reilly, Glen Beck and the Fox News p.r. department. That says plenty.
12/14/09
"I come from a paper that going un-duh..."