We should re-brand the hate crimes as what they really are: terrorism.
Suppose someone killed a bunch of Israeli civilians simply because they are Jews? That'd be terrorism, right? Why should killing a bunch of Israeli civilians simply because they are gays be any different?
@dreamsneverend: Killing someone to steal their wallet is not a hate crime. I believe that murder based on race, religion or sexual orientation should have a more severe punishment.
@uncivily obedient: The punishment for murder isn't severe enough to act as a deterrent against murdering people? I think the punitive deterrent is about as effective as it can get.
@dreamsneverend: There is a difference. Hate crimes are not only motivated exclusively because of membership in a despised group, but also are intended to send a message to that group that certain behaviors by members of that group will result in similar violence.
The lynching of African American men in the southern US in the first 2/3 of the 20th century were not just to mete out vigilante punishment, they were also to control the remainder of the African American community by sending the message that other 'uppity Negroes' would meet a similar fate.
In this case, the message was that gays who are in any way visible in society will be subject to brutal executions. And unfortunately the civil authorities are in fact helping the perpetrator of this crime with his task by closing the local gay bars. One would think that Israelis would know that you don't deal with terrorists by giving them exactly what they want.
@NickelMD: Umm, well, I don't think these establishments would be closed if they'd caught the guy. There's a big difference between saying "Hey, the gays were attacked and we caught the guy, but let's close down all the gay establishments so they never get attacked in them again" and "Hey, the gays were attacked the guy is still on the loose, maybe we should close down all the gay establishments temporarily, on the grounds that it's highly plausible he might try to hit another one."
@skt.smth: I get the rationale, but I still question it. It should be up to the clubs and their patrons to decide whether they want to take the risk. Closing them is tantamount to saying, "You're creating the danger by existing."
@MissNormaDesmond: Not really. It's tantamount to saying "You're in immediate danger because there's a lunatic shooter who specifically went after people at a gay meeting place and we haven't caught him yet." If it led to another atrocity, we'd all be sitting here wringing our hands asking why the state didn't do more to protect those poor people, wouldn't we?
@skt.smth: "Doing more to protect them" isn't synonymous with violating what we'd think of here as their right to free assembly. Lots of people die on the freeway every year, but we'd take a dim view of the state telling people they couldn't drive any more for their protection; people get mad enough about seatbelts. We have one shooting that took place at a gay social club for teenagers under circumstances that aren't yet known. Deciding that this means that all gay clubs need to close seems like a leap to me. I mean, why not go all the way and have a curfew for gay people, just to be safe?
@MissNormaDesmond: We have a shooting whose perpetrator is still on the loose, which means that people are in imminent danger. I don't think your analogies are very good in this case.
@skt.smth: Really? You know, there are and have been for decades scores of terrorists in the area who seem to focus on Jews. I notice that synagogues have not been ordered to close.
@MissNormaDesmond: I didn't get the impression from the article that they were closing down gay meeting places permanently, but as an immediate measure to protect the safety of individuals. You know, like a 24-hour type of thing. Again, not a suicide bomber who killed himself along with others. This is a gunman who targeted a specific group of people (homosexuals) and is (or was at the time ... has there been an update on this story?) still on the loose.
Given the timing of the attack, it's unlikely the attacker was "religious" (due to the sabbath). Looks like the work of an insane homophobe. No Rabbi worth his salt would ever condone such an act. Oh and the death toll is now up to three.
@jewlicious: Mmm, I see where you are coming from, and I would never suggest that religious figures would condone something like this, but homophobia in general is due to religion and religion alone. If it weren't for religious documents denouncing homosexuality thousands of years ago, we probably wouldn't have anywhere near the amount of hatred towards homosexuals today.
And I am horrified to hear that another innocent died, and hope beyond hope that everyone else will pull through.
@seyswho: Sadly, I know many secular individuals who are rabidly homophobic. Ignorance and hate know no boundaries.
This whole thing has me totally upset and my heart goes out to the victims, their friends and families. This sort of attack has never happened in Israel before and it is a watershed moment. I hope some good will come of it and that we will be able to unite as a nation in condemning this heinous and cowardly attack.
@jewlicious: Agreed. Sometimes, as horrible as it is, some good can come from a terrible situation. We have a chance for some real decency here, and I really can't see any but the foulest of Americans actually supporting this lunatic's actions. Should be interesting to see what happens from here.
@jewlicious: Sure, but nothing about secularism stands inherently in support of homophobic values. For some religions, though, salvation itself depends on internalizing and acting in accordance with such values. That's the difference.
Uniting in condemnation of these types of acts is not "a good that comes of it." The act still happened, and how we respond to that act as a world society doesn't offer even the slightest mitigation. Rather these condemnations are necessities. To not condemn these acts would be a great social evil, but we don't get extra brownie points for coming out against slaughtering homosexuals.
@skt.smth: Good point, and it should have been clarified a bit more. What I was getting at was not that we get points for it, but that something like this can sometimes change minds or give those on the fence a little push. That's the good that can come of it. Sometimes the grotesqueries of such a situation can get people thinking about their own beliefs, since many people who disagree with homosexuality could never in a million years imagine doing something this brutal.
I also think it's possible that someone who could commit such a horrifying act of violence may not be as concerned with maintaining the sabbath. I know it depends on this person's specific pathology, but it is a possibility.
@LittleSecrets: Well, the nutcase who killed Dr. Tiller had no qualms about shooting him dead in a church of God, so I don't have much "faith" in the notion that our killer couldn't have religious motives simply because it's the sabbath.
@LittleSecrets: Also, I believe that under Jewish law, almost any of the commandments can be broken ethically (in the mind of the commandment breaker, anyway) if there is a "greater good" being served by the infraction. Lunatics worldwide are masters of finding rationalizations for going against the core values they pretend to have.
@oudemia: First of all, Shabbat ended at 8:51 pm in Tel Aviv. The shooting took place a little more than 2 hours after the Sabbath ended. Not really relevant I guess, but I just wanted to show off my hebcal.com prowess.
More importantly, Judaism does not allow individuals to administer capital punishment. Even duly authorized legal bodies rarely administered capital punishment for any reason. Furthermore, being gay is in and of itself not a sin and lesbianism isn't proscribed at all. Even by the most backwards hard core Orthodox standards, man on man sex is exactly as "abhorrent" as eating shrimp, but you don't see anyone shooting up Tel Aviv's many sea food establishments.
If motivated by Homophobia, this was the act of a hateful, ignorant and quite possibly insane person. Ascribing blame to a religion is misplaced. Allow me to reiterate what I have already stated, ignorance and hate know no religious or ideological boundaries.
@skt.smth: Almost any law in Judaism can be broken for the sake of "pikuach nefesh" or saving a life, ie a Doctor can work on the sabbath, a ham sandwich must be eaten if you are about to starve to death and it's the only food available. There's nothing in Judaism that allows one to go into a social club and shoot people to death.
@jewlicious: Hence the "lunatic" part of my statement. Lunatics can come up with all sorts of rationalizations that normal people would find utterly preposterous.
@skt.smth: Not quite true. The specific halachic (Jewish legal) argument is that you can break almost any commandment in order to save a life. There is no concept of a "greater good" than the Torah laws other than when a human life is at stake. And even then, there are three exceptions: idolatry, adultery, and murder - you cannot commit any of those three acts even in order to save a life. So there is no religious Jewish exception that could come into play here. Clearly the person is a lunatic, and my heart goes out to the victims and their families. And it is possible that they are a religious lunatic, and just as possibly Muslim or Christian - time will tell. But there is nothing within the framework of Orthodox Jewish law that would make this acceptable, no matter what their views on homosexuality itself.
@skt.smth: That is absolute nonsense. In fact 99% of all laws must be broken in order to save a life.
Secondly, Judaism doesn't consider homosexuality a sin. A man can be gay and be just as religious and righteous as anyone. So what "greater good" would there be anyway?
@uncivily obedient: I don't know what it would be. Also, I am not an expert on Judaism, so thank you everybody for correcting me on that point.
I should make it clear that I don't really care if this guy's motive was religious or not. That was a side argument about homophobia when it comes from religious doctrine vs. homophobia existing in the secular world. And I still stand by my argument that homophobia that emerges from religion is a lot more pernicious, because there do exist sets of religious values that would enforce homophobia as a condition of salvation. I'm not saying Judaism does that. I'm just saying that the threat from religions that do contain such value systems is far greater than that of homophobia that crops up in the secular world, through no particular fault in secular thought.
@jewlicious: "Sadly, I know many secular individuals who are rabidly homophobic. Ignorance and hate know no boundaries."
Perhaps in your personal life, but not in mine. Though as an experiment here, please name for me just three well known living atheists who espouse homophobic beliefs. I can certainly name hundreds who are theists, but somehow I can't see PZ Meyers or Richard Dawkins teaming up with Fred Phelps.
While not all homophobes are rabidly religious, the lions share are. This is not necessarily completely a byproduct of religion itself though. You are correct that hating outsiders crosses all social and cultural boundaries. However, people who are atheists are more likely to question these beliefs and don't have the easy justification that their big bad sky-daddy told them it was bad and justified their hatred.
Its like what John Stuart Mill said of conservatives: "Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." Same with homophobia and the three major monotheistic religions.
@uncivily obedient: "Secondly, Judaism doesn't consider homosexuality a sin. A man can be gay and be just as religious and righteous as anyone."
Sure, as long as he doesn't engage in anal sex. That's the kind of same argument used by people who oppose same-sex marriage: "Gays can marry just like anyone else - as long as they marry someone of the opposite sex." In this case: "You aren't sinning of you are gay, just if you have gay sex."
So while your argument may be technically correct, its complete and utter bullshit. Have a look at the film "Trembling before G_d" if you want a more detailed description of how and why Judaism considers homosexuality a sin.
@NickelMD: I've seen "Trembling Before G_d" and I know Sandi Dubowski who produced the film. My point was that anyone who tries to justify this attack on religious grounds is grotesquely ignorant of Judaism. I'm not trying to engage in a dick measuring contest between Atheists and religious people. I've been to the Soviet Union. I've been to China. I know what atheists are capable of and rabid homophobia is just one of those things. But like I said, fuck that noise. I'm not here to score points for any particular ideology or orientation. What happened in Tel Aviv last night was horrible, a true abomination. I hope that it creates unity rather than division. End of story.
@jewlicious: It is true that there are secular peeps who are homophobic, but this paternal Abrahamic tradition that teaches that homosexuality is an abomination, like what is taught in the Abrahamic Big Three (Christianity, Judaism, Islam), certainly plays a large role in cementing a view that homosexuals corrupt society -- and social corruption is a huge deal among devout practicing Abrahamics -- they take public expressions of vice very seriously because they thing it will bring others to "the dark side." So it's a teensy-weensy disingenuous to imply that religion doesn't play a role in demonizing gays. Certainly there are secular nuts out there hating homosexuals, but religion plays a role in making homophobia socially acceptable, even moral.
@NickelMD: I watched Trembling Before God and what I saw was religious homosexual Jews.
Any of those people who felt they needed to leave the religion of their youth did it of their own volition. Others (like the psychiatrist) were able to accept who they were and remain in the fold.
How the Ultra Orthodox in Israel choose to look at these gay members of their group is of their own choosing.
@NickelMD: It may seem like splitting hairs, but all of Orthodox Judaism involves hair-splitting. Anal sex may be an important aspect of some gay men's lives, but it does not play a role in all gay relationships, and has no role in lesbian sex (in the sense that the torah prohibits it). To say that because anal sex is prohibited, "you are sinning if you have gay sex" simply isn't true. The prohibition against lesbianism is rabbinic (not scriptural), and is generally agreed to be based on the prohibition against goddess-worship, not homosexuality. I'm not trying to defend OJ's treatment of homosexuality or of homosexuals (and I second the recommendation of "Trembling Before G-d"), but when it comes to actual issues of Jewish law, I think the nuances are important. Married heterosexual couples - the core practitioners of Orthodox Judaism - are also limited in what sex acts they can do, and even when they are allowed to have relations at all. And the prohibition against men and women having sex during the times when it is not allowed is arguably considered far more of a transgression than that against, say, oral between same-sex couples. So it's not bullshit - or if you prefer, it's equal opportunity bullshit. It is appalling that the only way a gay person can live as an Orthodox Jew is to do so in the closet, and hopefully in our lifetimes attitudes will shift about this, but the fact is that Orthodox Judaism is law-based, and anyone who openly breaks those laws - any of them, including the Sabbath, kashrut, etc. - must do so in the closet or will be ostracized by the fundamentalist community.
The headlines for this story are misleading, possibly intentionally, thanks to the media. When the international reader reads "gay club," they think of a nightclub. You did too, didn't you? A nightclub shooting, with oontz-oontz music and gay people grinding on one another, a night of partying, shooter in black shooting into a dark club.
No. It was the Tel Aviv Gay and Lesbian Association, a community center. The shooting took place during a meeting of a support group of LGBT teenagers. It was a social club.
Dreadful. Worse, these were teens who were "injured", as in, "sprayed by automatic gunfire by a masked gunman", as Reuters says.
Just appalling, these were kids. Ah, sad.
@uncivily obedient: I won't even dignify your fucking insulting insinuation there- don't tell me how to "interpret" anything. I have a young cousin still in Iraq, his fourth tour. I put "injured" in quotes to highlight how odd it is that for us readers, "thank God they're still alive" is our response, but it doesn't do justice to the grievous bodily harm they may have suffered. It understates the gravity of it.
Don't you fucking tell me anything about "how to interpret", bastard. You can't even spell your own name properly.
@uncivily obedient: You were agreeing with me? Well, it was bloody unclear. Work on that, seriously. I'm sorry I said "bastard", but I didn't say "moron". And I'll say "fucking" any time I like, don't take it personally. Peace.
@bjonston: In the Bible, God killed and ordered killed more people than Hitler, including men, women, children and unborn fetuses. And in really nasty ways too (cutting unborn babies out of their mother's bellies and bashing them on rocks, rampant rape of women, sick mutilations, genocide, it goes on and on). The way the Bible is worded softens the blow of these passages, but the mass murder is still obvious.
Somehow the "Thou shalt not kill" deal loses it's punch.
@skt.smth: Proof that even foreign assholes are classier than American assholes. We say "God hates fags." "God hates debauchery" is far more sophisticated!
@bjonston: The outlook of religious people is that gods will trumps logic. So the same god who said incest is bad also said the killing of certain sinners is good. That's all there is to it.
MissNormaDesmond promoted this comment
Edited by uncivilly obedient at 08/01/09 9:36 PM
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@SaraRueful: Exactly! That was going to be my initial comment. Even the hateful motherfuckers overseas are really more like "rakish rabblerousers" when all is said and done.
@uncivilly obedient: This is the outlook of some, not all religious people. It tends to be the outlook of religious fundamentalists, but most religious people are not fundamentalists.
To: seyswho: you are so full of shit. You're spewing intolerance of gays and I've been reading your posts about religion and Christians. You want gay tolerance yet you bad mouth Christianity with some of your stupid generalizations eg Christians cheat but stay married? That's not how you win over the majority of the US population.
It's as offensive me saying, "oh well, that's three less queers in Tel Aviv."
@Tiki Tonga: Hey, ass, guess what? I'm not trying to win over you or anyone else. Certainly couldn't care less about winning over any Christians. These are my opinions and I'm entitled to them as much as you. Go suck an egg.
And for the record, bashing Christian right figures for their hypocrisy is not the same as advocating murder of innocent human beings. God, you're a fucking idiot.
@seyswho: He has a point though. It seems that for you tolerance ends with homosexual people. You don't appear to have any tolerance for people's right to be religious.
People who murder in the name of religion don't deserve any tolerance and these people should be stamped out. But the average religious person (oh say, about 4 billion people, give or take a billion) would never murder for any reason.
@uncivily obedient: I never down people for being religious. It is the religious hypocrisy and fanatacism that I despise. Unfortunately, those tend to be the stories that make it onto Gawker that I comment on. Thank you for phrasing your comment with a little respect, and I am honestly sorry if I offended.
I am the member of a religion who's entire history has been one of being victim to discrimination and persecution. I feel that's why I have a natural inborn abhorrence for all things racist and discriminatory; it's kind of etched in my DNA. And this has not created the slightest friction with my religious sensibilities.
@uncivily obedient: Oh, absolutely. I want to be clear here - I do not wish to generalize all religions as being evil or discriminatory or racist or any of those things. Even though I am not religious, I think faith plays an important role in the lives of those who believe, and I am all for it.
At the same time, religion should be a personal matter, and should not spill over into interfering with the lives of those who do not believe. That is what I have a problem with, and it happens all the time.
You sound like an angry gay man with a big chip on your shoulder. I pointed out your own hypocrisy and you couldn't take it.
I could give a rat's ass if you're gay, but you're a fool if you don't think tolerance begins with showing empathy toward another perspective (such as Christians), as backward ass as you might think it is. Because I'm sure you were the first guy who went ape-shit when Prop 8 was upheld.
Bashing Christian right figures is also expressing hate. You might not agree with them, but you see bent on destroying them (if you could). I'm sure you're most sensitive about their intolerance toward homosexuality. Your mentality is just as dangerous and I'm sure that's the first step maniacal Islamic followers go through before they become murderous. It's the seed of destruction.
And I'm curious; if you're an atheist, can you prove that God doesn't exist?
@Tiki Tonga: You obviously did not read my other comments; I explained myself very clearly. I'm not going to get into this with someone who got disemvoweled in another thread for a seriously bigoted remark. I would obviously be wasting my time. But just so you know? The Christian right figures who push themselves into my life and try to call the shots for people they don't even know, especially when many of them do not lead "moral valued" lives? Yes, I would be fine with them being destroyed (politically and socially).
The rest of them can do whatever the hell they please, I DON'T CARE. But if anyone tries to insinuate their lifestyle on me, then yes, I will fight them tooth and nail all the way.
And could I prove God doesn't exist to you? Probably not. But I proved it to myself a long time ago. Unlike some, I'm not here to change other people's ideals.
Just trying to get them to keep them to themselves.
I think the "politically and socially" part of your comment is the linchpin here. It isn't hateful or discriminatory to resist the incursion of fundamentalist religious values on the laws of the country, which are explicitly meant to be separated from religious motive.
@skt.smth: Yeah, I put that in in the edit because I realized it could be taken the wrong way. No one is advocating the overthrow of religion or the "capping" of their proverbial asses. I just want my rights too.
How is anyone trying to insinuate their lifestyle on you? Because of Prop 8? Because of health care coverage? And why are Christians in your rife scope? Do you know what Islam, Judaism et al say about homosexuality? I guarantee you it's not terribly embracing. I feel the same as you -- you are free to do what you want. But what I don't tolerate is when anyone gets in my face with their agenda. And that's how most conservatives feel about the gay advocacy movement. And ironically, that's how gays feel about conservatives.
@Tiki Tonga: You know what's funny? If religious fundamentals would just get out of the way and allow gays the same rights as them, we wouldn't be in your face! We would be living our lives quietly, just like you say you want to do. Giving gays those rights does not affect you in any way, except by getting us out of your hair.
And you are, again and as usual, missing the point. Religion has nothing to do with federal law, and in fact the Constitution specifies that implicitly. Yet somehow it's wormed its way in nevertheless. That is wrong on a level I can't even put into words.
And I DO verbally attack Islam and Judaism when they do the same, but those religions have no input into the lawmaking decisions in this country, which is where my beef is.
And finally, what conservatives never seem to understand is that they CANNOT stop progress. This is going to happen in this country whether you like it or not, so if it bothers you that much, better start packing for Iran.
@Tiki Tonga: Christians are the biggest group lobbying for their values to be adopted as political policy in America right now. That's why they're "in our rifle scope," though I think you're purposely phrasing it that way in order to make it sound like anybody who resists Christian values being written into law must want to do violence against Christians and religious people in general.
@seyswho: Well, it's like you have these people who've lived for ages with discrimination, and when they respond to that discrimination by being vocal and not backing down, the discriminators say "Hey, half the reason why we're doing this in the first place is because you can't stop being so in-our-face about your agenda!"
The mental gymnastics required to make such an argument just boggle the fucking mind.
@skt.smth: Agreed. I'm probably going to get flamed yet again for this, but I honestly think that particular argument requires at least a temporary break from reality.
@Tiki Tonga: "Gay advocacy movement"? There is no such thing. Gay rights advocacy movement, maybe.
Also, if it's in your face all the time, you should have no trouble clearly defining the homosexual "agenda" in 100 words or less. Go ahead. We're all ears.
@The Defeatery: Don't you know that when gays demand equal treatment, they are essentially saying that they want to make everybody gay?
Also, remember when all the black people demanding equal treatment essentially said that they wanted to make everybody black? And when the women said they wanted to make everybody into a woman?
@Tiki Tonga: The anger is because we encounter so many assholes who will tie themselves in logical and linguistic knots to justify what amounts to bigotry.
Take that as you will.
oneninesevenfour promoted this comment
Edited by Stream Of Consciousness at 08/01/09 5:37 PM
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Nov. 11th, 1pm, 13th and 6th ave. Shepard Smith with a male friend, very Anderson Cooper if you catch my drift.
#stalker [gawker.com] #andersoncooper #gay
08/02/09
Suppose someone killed a bunch of Israeli civilians simply because they are Jews? That'd be terrorism, right? Why should killing a bunch of Israeli civilians simply because they are gays be any different?
08/02/09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIRAsPqJq4M&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjoemygod.blogspot.com%2F&feature=player_embedded
p.s. Don't read the YouTube comments. They will make you ill.
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Kind of inappropriate. C'mon.
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The lynching of African American men in the southern US in the first 2/3 of the 20th century were not just to mete out vigilante punishment, they were also to control the remainder of the African American community by sending the message that other 'uppity Negroes' would meet a similar fate.
In this case, the message was that gays who are in any way visible in society will be subject to brutal executions. And unfortunately the civil authorities are in fact helping the perpetrator of this crime with his task by closing the local gay bars. One would think that Israelis would know that you don't deal with terrorists by giving them exactly what they want.
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No they don't. They understand the most important point that Bill Maher ever made:
If you give into it, they win.
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And I am horrified to hear that another innocent died, and hope beyond hope that everyone else will pull through.
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This whole thing has me totally upset and my heart goes out to the victims, their friends and families. This sort of attack has never happened in Israel before and it is a watershed moment. I hope some good will come of it and that we will be able to unite as a nation in condemning this heinous and cowardly attack.
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Uniting in condemnation of these types of acts is not "a good that comes of it." The act still happened, and how we respond to that act as a world society doesn't offer even the slightest mitigation. Rather these condemnations are necessities. To not condemn these acts would be a great social evil, but we don't get extra brownie points for coming out against slaughtering homosexuals.
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I also think it's possible that someone who could commit such a horrifying act of violence may not be as concerned with maintaining the sabbath. I know it depends on this person's specific pathology, but it is a possibility.
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More importantly, Judaism does not allow individuals to administer capital punishment. Even duly authorized legal bodies rarely administered capital punishment for any reason. Furthermore, being gay is in and of itself not a sin and lesbianism isn't proscribed at all. Even by the most backwards hard core Orthodox standards, man on man sex is exactly as "abhorrent" as eating shrimp, but you don't see anyone shooting up Tel Aviv's many sea food establishments.
If motivated by Homophobia, this was the act of a hateful, ignorant and quite possibly insane person. Ascribing blame to a religion is misplaced. Allow me to reiterate what I have already stated, ignorance and hate know no religious or ideological boundaries.
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Secondly, Judaism doesn't consider homosexuality a sin. A man can be gay and be just as religious and righteous as anyone. So what "greater good" would there be anyway?
08/01/09
I should make it clear that I don't really care if this guy's motive was religious or not. That was a side argument about homophobia when it comes from religious doctrine vs. homophobia existing in the secular world. And I still stand by my argument that homophobia that emerges from religion is a lot more pernicious, because there do exist sets of religious values that would enforce homophobia as a condition of salvation. I'm not saying Judaism does that. I'm just saying that the threat from religions that do contain such value systems is far greater than that of homophobia that crops up in the secular world, through no particular fault in secular thought.
08/01/09
Perhaps in your personal life, but not in mine. Though as an experiment here, please name for me just three well known living atheists who espouse homophobic beliefs. I can certainly name hundreds who are theists, but somehow I can't see PZ Meyers or Richard Dawkins teaming up with Fred Phelps.
While not all homophobes are rabidly religious, the lions share are. This is not necessarily completely a byproduct of religion itself though. You are correct that hating outsiders crosses all social and cultural boundaries. However, people who are atheists are more likely to question these beliefs and don't have the easy justification that their big bad sky-daddy told them it was bad and justified their hatred.
Its like what John Stuart Mill said of conservatives: "Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." Same with homophobia and the three major monotheistic religions.
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Sure, as long as he doesn't engage in anal sex. That's the kind of same argument used by people who oppose same-sex marriage: "Gays can marry just like anyone else - as long as they marry someone of the opposite sex." In this case: "You aren't sinning of you are gay, just if you have gay sex."
So while your argument may be technically correct, its complete and utter bullshit. Have a look at the film "Trembling before G_d" if you want a more detailed description of how and why Judaism considers homosexuality a sin.
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Any of those people who felt they needed to leave the religion of their youth did it of their own volition. Others (like the psychiatrist) were able to accept who they were and remain in the fold.
How the Ultra Orthodox in Israel choose to look at these gay members of their group is of their own choosing.
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No. It was the Tel Aviv Gay and Lesbian Association, a community center. The shooting took place during a meeting of a support group of LGBT teenagers. It was a social club.
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http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCATRE5701V520090801
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Just appalling, these were kids. Ah, sad.
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Don't you fucking tell me anything about "how to interpret", bastard. You can't even spell your own name properly.
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I was agreeing with you.
"You will" as in "one will".
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Somehow the "Thou shalt not kill" deal loses it's punch.
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Just trying to explain the concept.
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How awful.
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It's as offensive me saying, "oh well, that's three less queers in Tel Aviv."
Pull your head out of your ass.
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And for the record, bashing Christian right figures for their hypocrisy is not the same as advocating murder of innocent human beings. God, you're a fucking idiot.
08/01/09
People who murder in the name of religion don't deserve any tolerance and these people should be stamped out. But the average religious person (oh say, about 4 billion people, give or take a billion) would never murder for any reason.
08/01/09
08/01/09
08/01/09
I am the member of a religion who's entire history has been one of being victim to discrimination and persecution. I feel that's why I have a natural inborn abhorrence for all things racist and discriminatory; it's kind of etched in my DNA. And this has not created the slightest friction with my religious sensibilities.
08/01/09
At the same time, religion should be a personal matter, and should not spill over into interfering with the lives of those who do not believe. That is what I have a problem with, and it happens all the time.
08/01/09
08/01/09
I could give a rat's ass if you're gay, but you're a fool if you don't think tolerance begins with showing empathy toward another perspective (such as Christians), as backward ass as you might think it is. Because I'm sure you were the first guy who went ape-shit when Prop 8 was upheld.
Bashing Christian right figures is also expressing hate. You might not agree with them, but you see bent on destroying them (if you could). I'm sure you're most sensitive about their intolerance toward homosexuality. Your mentality is just as dangerous and I'm sure that's the first step maniacal Islamic followers go through before they become murderous. It's the seed of destruction.
And I'm curious; if you're an atheist, can you prove that God doesn't exist?
08/01/09
The rest of them can do whatever the hell they please, I DON'T CARE. But if anyone tries to insinuate their lifestyle on me, then yes, I will fight them tooth and nail all the way.
And could I prove God doesn't exist to you? Probably not. But I proved it to myself a long time ago. Unlike some, I'm not here to change other people's ideals.
Just trying to get them to keep them to themselves.
08/01/09
I think the "politically and socially" part of your comment is the linchpin here. It isn't hateful or discriminatory to resist the incursion of fundamentalist religious values on the laws of the country, which are explicitly meant to be separated from religious motive.
08/01/09
08/02/09
08/02/09
And you are, again and as usual, missing the point. Religion has nothing to do with federal law, and in fact the Constitution specifies that implicitly. Yet somehow it's wormed its way in nevertheless. That is wrong on a level I can't even put into words.
And I DO verbally attack Islam and Judaism when they do the same, but those religions have no input into the lawmaking decisions in this country, which is where my beef is.
And finally, what conservatives never seem to understand is that they CANNOT stop progress. This is going to happen in this country whether you like it or not, so if it bothers you that much, better start packing for Iran.
08/02/09
08/02/09
The mental gymnastics required to make such an argument just boggle the fucking mind.
08/02/09
Alright, bed time!
08/02/09
Also, if it's in your face all the time, you should have no trouble clearly defining the homosexual "agenda" in 100 words or less. Go ahead. We're all ears.
08/02/09
Also, remember when all the black people demanding equal treatment essentially said that they wanted to make everybody black? And when the women said they wanted to make everybody into a woman?
Crazy fucking lunatics, for real.
08/04/09
Take that as you will.
08/01/09
05/28/09
05/28/09
05/28/09
This was the first comment to make me laugh in a long time.
05/28/09
05/28/09