Make Congress members live under the same rules their votes entail.
There's be a lot less grandstanding over abortion and health care reform when they'd have to face the consequences of their votes. #government
Someone who is opposed to interpreting the constitution on certain issues, as you do, might see some of these proposals through a different prism............and thus come to the very same conclusion you did...........that you're stupid for suggesting some of them.
Perhaps you need to add making snap judgments about others based on personal bias to your list.
That said, some of your proposals are indeed.... sensible. #government
I've done my sums, and if you eliminate the 100,000-odd gun-related deaths and serious injuries from your annual health ledger (as opposed to the late Heath Ledger), you can finance your new health reforms. Not to mention, you'll save money by eliminating a whole raft of ongoing health issues caused by bullets. Et voila! Problem solved. #government
This is more of a comment with bullet coding that a real post, isn't it? I mean, any one of us down here could make a laundry list of things we believe in. I agree with most of these things, but how is this nothing more than doodling? And can I have your job? #government
Also, there should be like, no money or anything. We could all start a village, and everyone would contribute equally, and we'd all get to share equally, and every night we could have a drum circle. #government
Ditto on support for the arts. The NEA gets about $150 million in funding each year. Sounds like a huge number, right? Well, the UK funds its artists to the tune of around $3 billion a year. And considering our GDP bests theirs by about 7 times, $150 million is kind of embarrassing. #government
@ConAir34: Because artists spur cultural innovation and without them we really have no cultural identity whatsoever. Unless, of course, you just want to stop somewhere arbitrary, say 1950, and live out that cultural era for the rest of your life. Actually, I think a lot of conservatives would love that. #government
@ConAir34: If it is good then someone will pay for it. If not then it probably wasn't worth anything.
The world of art is rife with examples of great artists who scraped to get by their entire lives and never saw any of the money associated with sales of their work after death. One has to imagine that a good many would-be artists, people who might make grand contributions to the culture at large, are turned away by the prospect of dying penniless.
Honestly, all you have to do is look at poetry for a clear refutation of your argument. Only a few have ever managed to make a dime off of poetry, and most of those were hundreds of years ago.
And however vehement you may be in denying it, you really do seem to be against art and against artists.
@skt.smth: I have no personal ill will towards them. If they find some wealthy benefactor and live out their days in luxury then more power to them.
It isn't actually any of my concern at all until someone starts talking about government funding.
I don't believe a handout should be given from tax dollars.
A poet can work at McDonalds and write in his off time. A painter can work at a toll booth etc.
Your statement proves my point though. These people will apparently do their "art" with or without money. If they are any good they will make money or they can get a job at Kinko's. #government
@ConAir34: That is lame. The current federal contribution to the arts is negligible. It's about 0.00005% of the federal budget. If you look at arts funding relative to the GDP, it comes out to 0.00001%.
It's reckless to make the argument--and I think this is the argument you're making--that by funding the arts, we're funding something pointless, that isn't necessary to our culture at all. Presumably, you feel this way because you can't see any immediate "profit" in supporting the arts. This mentality of leaving anything that doesn't provide an immediate material benefit to its own devices, supposedly because everything of actual quality will provide said immediate material benefits (and if not, then it deserves to languish unsupported), is exactly the opposite of what the country needs right now.
Like it or not, the US is becoming a strictly service-based economy. A large part of the success of service economies lies in fostering the kind of creativity necessary for the emergence of novel services, things we can do that we never imagined would be necessary or marketable. Supporting artists fits directly into this paradigm. Creative industries are, and always have been, inspired by the works of artists who aren't technically part of the industrial world themselves.
Look at Korea (where I live right now, actually) if you want to see an example of a country struggling to get out of its manufacturing rut and move toward creative, service-based industries. They're learning firsthand what America seems to have forgotten, that creativity isn't just this frivolous thing that means nothing to a culture or a national economy, but that it is something absolutely integral in that regard. The government can only punt the ball on creativity to universities and private interests for so long before we start to see a general lag in our creative economy compared to other highly-developed nations around the world.
For example, the only thing really holding together our tech sector at the moment is the fact that creative foreigners have sought Silicon Valley as the starting place for their businesses. Most of the big tech companies these days are relying more and more on foreign personnel, because honestly, American creativity just isn't being supported anymore. #government
Wow, really? Because there are a lot of things that make almost everything on your little list here a lot more complicated than just 'stupid people'. Like, you know, the constitution, in some cases.
People who think like you really should just stand up and say that you believe the constitution is outdated and should be scrapped for a new, more progressive document altogether. At least you'd be intellectually honest and worthy of a modicum of respect, as opposed to the kabuki dance you people have been doing around it for the last 50 years or so.
Also, people aren't 'stupid' just because their beliefs run in opposition to yours. And calling them that is a very quick way to ensure that what you believe is dismissed as the rantings of a child. #government
@Han Valen: Agreed. Also, not a very good reading of "real" actual politics.
But then again I'm that rare thing, a lefty Constitutional literalist.
For instance, I can make a pretty plausible argument for the second amendment, which I have some fundamental, personal problems with. While it certainly has created a higher street crime rate over the years, I would also venture that the right to bear arms is the reason we've only had one civil war and why, in as militarized a country as this is, we've never had a military coup or fallen prey to military dictatorship. If you doubt me, take a look at the 19th century history of some of our European partners in the grand Democracy experiment.
See, even though gun violence is a terrible thing, the second amendment does what it's supposed to. An active and armed populace is hard to subdue, both from without and from within.
Just to reiterate, before I get piled onto here, I am about as lefty as they come, but I believe you take the Constitution as it is, even the parts you don't personally like. #government
@Han Valen: Couldn't agree more. I know it's supposed to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it just comes off as immature that he calla people stupid because they don't agree with him.
So, let me get this straight...he wants to ban all guns yet legalize all drugs? The problem at the heart of both things is one and the same: people. A gun is a tool which can be used with different results depending on the person using it, just as much as a blunt or a tablet of X is. People can be responsible or reckless. Obviously we've seen that outright banning all drugs has led to ridiculous incarceration rates, drugs with dangerous and variable "inert" ingredients that kill, and since they are on the black market, the sales of many fund terrorist/gang/mob organizations. Look also at what happened during prohibition. We learned our lesson VERY quickly then. I agree that legalizing drugs is a solution to many of these problems - legalize it, tax and regulate the hell out of it.
And after knowing all that, he has the temerity to suggest that people are stupid to not support banning all guns except rifles and shotguns? Fortunately, it doesn't take a "genius" to figure out what will happen then - just look to illegal controlled substances as a good example.
@lionel-mandrake: I would also venture that the right to bear arms is the reason we've only had one civil war and why, in as militarized a country as this is, we've never had a military coup or fallen prey to military dictatorship.
More likely this is because each state has a national guard at the command of its governor.
In any case, correlation is not causation, etc, etc, etc.
@lionel-mandrake: Yeah, but the second amendment is pretty open to interpretation.
Also, I don't really think a populace armed with handguns or rifles is going to be able to compete with a trained military using unmanned drones and tanks. But I take your point. #government
@saya: Fortunately, it doesn't take a "genius" to figure out what will happen then - just look to illegal controlled substances as a good example.
I'm sorry, but building a gun and growing weed are entirely different things. I'm not saying that guns wouldn't be available in some measure on the black market if they were banned. But I would imagine that our current source of guns is mainly domestic and that, if we simply shut down all of those factories, the supply would come to a halt rather quickly.
I actually disagree with Ravi. I think that all guns should be banned, because honestly, any motherfucker who's going to use a gun to kill somebody is just going to use what's available, even if we're talking only rifles and shotguns. In fact, I don't see why rifles and shotguns are an exception to the rule. Just because they are commonly used for hunting? Honestly, I'd rather be shot with a 9mm than get shotgunned in the face, but that's just me. #government
@skt.smth: But that's just it. Any mother fucker who is angry enough to kill someone is going to do it with what ever they can get their hands on knives, bow and arrow, lead pipe, run over with car or whatever.
Banning guns isn't going to lower the murder rate. #government
@lionel-mandrake: But an active and armed populace with rifles and shotguns ought to be, hypothetically, as difficult to actively subdue as a populace armed only with handguns. I mean, we already limit precisely which arms people have the right to--it's not like you can go to the store and buy grenades, or a minigun, and why not?
Besides that, correlation/causation, &c., and it's not like there haven't been numerous uprisings in the US in its extremely short (compared to Europe's) history that we haven't put down by shooting the crap out of our citizenry. #government
@saya: A gun is a tool which can be used with different results depending on the person using it, just as much as a blunt or a tablet of X is.
This statement is completely false. A Dremel is a tool which can be used with different results depending on the person using it. A gun is a unitasker. So is a tablet of X.
Don't believe me? Okay, then try using your gun for something other than shooting someone. #government
@Lincolnsbeard33: That doesn't even make any sense. Although I'd like to see someone attempting a drive-by with a bow and arrow. But if you're going to argue that all types of murderous violence are going to be just as effective as guns are, well, I think that's an uphill battle you have on your hands. It just doesn't hold logically. #government
@braak: Let me clarify. I don't think the framers imagined that the Second Amendment would be used the way it has been. I don't think they would consider the level of gun violence we have acceptable. Nor do I think they would approve of organizations like the NRA.
That said, I think the second amendment has been effective in accomplishing the stated goals of the framers.
Furthermore, compared to other countries who moved towards democracy in the same era, we've had an unusually long and stable run (barring some notable exceptions). #government
@Lincolnsbeard33: Guns are extraordinarily efficient machines for making people dead. It takes quite a different effort to bludgeon someone to death than it does to stand over there and press a button that makes them fall over. #government
@braak: Barring the gun's utility in animal hunting and target practice, I'm speaking of intention and not ultimate outcome. Homicide can be malicious (murder) or not (self-defense) - although in the end, you're killing a person. But hold no illusions - those two acts are held very differently in the eyes of the law. #government
@skt.smth: Really? The state governors control our national guard troops?
We have had governors who were apposed to what we were doing in Iraq, but they were stopped by federal law from pulling their guardsmen home, which has seemed to trump the notion that the individual states control the guard like they did a century ago. What we have now is an army, and a Landswehr (look up the term). That still doesn't count the mercenaries that Bush-Cheney hired; are they a third group, or a part of the landswehr?
The effects of Katrina were felt so badly on the gulf because the NG had been stripped and sent to the other gulf, along with all the support equipment that they would have used to help the citizens effected by the hurricane. What few people were left at the armories had no gear with which to rescue and assist as they might have done a decade before.
skt.smth promoted this comment
Edited by Chip Skylark of Space at 11/09/09 1:06 PM
Chip Skylark of Space was starred
Chip Skylark of Space was unstarred
@Lincolnsbeard33: Well your two examples from world history have certainly made a persuasive case.
I could get pretty fucked up if I drank enough Listerine. It's a lot more efficient and quick if I just boot up a spoonful of heroin though. #government
@lukeoneil47: oh please don't give me that crap. It is clear that guns are not the problem and it is mental problems of people. Murder existed long before guns where made and it will continue until you stop the problem. #government
@Chip Skylark of Space: Governors give permission for their National Guard troops to be used in wars, national skirmishes, whatever you want to call them. I'm not sure if this applies if what we do isn't technically "a war" though. I don't know the technicalities of it.
But the bottom line is that, if the president decided to use the military to lock everything down and form a dictatorship of some sort, there would be 50 states worth of National Guard troops with loyalty to that state (since that's where they're from, where their families are most likely located, etc) under the control of individual governors, ready to fight against such a measure.
This idea that we need the 2nd Amendment because we need civilian militias is completely bogus. National Guard troops serve the same purpose. #government
@Lincolnsbeard33: Guns are far more deadly. I don't see why, just because somebody can kill me with a bat or a knife, that means we should just legalize every piece of weaponry as a response. It's somewhat harder to kill me with a knife than it is to kill me with a gun (as long as, you know, you can aim and fire the thing semi-competently). #government
@Lincolnsbeard33: You aren't even arguing the same thing I am.
No one thinks guns invented murder, and no one thinks making guns illegal will eliminate murder.
Guns are simply the quickest, easiest, and most impersonal way to murder a human being ever invented. They are extraordinarily efficient murder machines. Without them people would kill each other a lot less frequently, and even if they still tried at the exact same rate to kill, they would have a lot less success at finishing the job. #government
@lukeoneil47: well the facts would beg to differ with you.
The states with the lowest crime rates are ones that allow concealed weapons.
The states with some of the highest crime rates have very strict gun control laws.
Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%.
Violent crimes have gone up in Canada since they added their gun control laws. #government
"Legalize" is a very... strong term. I'd say create an easy way for illegal immigrants to get citizenship, they are here anyway after all, but don't make it a rubber stamp policy.
Also, legalizing drugs will only get big tobacco & pharmacies on that stuff, and in the interest of making money, start lobbying for the ability to take it out of the public's hands. Better to just decriminalize or legalize ala Amsterdam. #government
@Paul_Is_Drunk: Right now, there's nothing in the law to prevent someone from growing their own tobacco for personal use and I assume that would hold true for straight legalization of marijuana.
Personally, I'd rather let Big Tobacco play because not only do they have effective lobbyists, but I'd like the convenience of buying joints over-the-counter.
Not to mention that it's the tax benefits that'll likely get us over the hump, something they wouldn't be able to derive from just allowing homegrown.
@Magister: if you are going to legalize marijuana you have to have very tight controls when you first do it. Plus you should tax the hell out of it to pay for health care. #government
@Lincolnsbeard33:
The last time states were actively decriminalizing and there was legitimate talk of legalization, the rumor, often credited to the tobacco companies was that the manufacturing process wouldn't be any more expensive than that of making cigarettes.
You could easily tack a $10 federal and a $5 state tax on that and still sell a pack for less than street value.
Otherwise, I've always advocated for political purposes that distribution should probably be limited to liquor stores, unless after a time, they could come up with a lower THC-content product, which could be sold in stores licensed for beer and wine.
I'm happy with most of it - it's an incrementalist bill that lays the groundwork for single payer - but there's a lot I don't like. Too many things were left out, and the abortion amendment had no place in a modern society's health care structure. #healthcare
11/09/09
There's be a lot less grandstanding over abortion and health care reform when they'd have to face the consequences of their votes. #government
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Perhaps you need to add making snap judgments about others based on personal bias to your list.
That said, some of your proposals are indeed.... sensible. #government
11/09/09
I've done my sums, and if you eliminate the 100,000-odd gun-related deaths and serious injuries from your annual health ledger (as opposed to the late Heath Ledger), you can finance your new health reforms. Not to mention, you'll save money by eliminating a whole raft of ongoing health issues caused by bullets. Et voila! Problem solved. #government
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My question is why tax dollars should be spent on art?
Would painters, sculptors, songwriters, etc all stop what they are doing if there was no government funding? No.
If it is good then someone will pay for it. If not then it probably wasn't worth anything. #government
11/09/09
The world of art is rife with examples of great artists who scraped to get by their entire lives and never saw any of the money associated with sales of their work after death. One has to imagine that a good many would-be artists, people who might make grand contributions to the culture at large, are turned away by the prospect of dying penniless.
Honestly, all you have to do is look at poetry for a clear refutation of your argument. Only a few have ever managed to make a dime off of poetry, and most of those were hundreds of years ago.
And however vehement you may be in denying it, you really do seem to be against art and against artists.
11/09/09
It isn't actually any of my concern at all until someone starts talking about government funding.
I don't believe a handout should be given from tax dollars.
A poet can work at McDonalds and write in his off time. A painter can work at a toll booth etc.
Your statement proves my point though. These people will apparently do their "art" with or without money. If they are any good they will make money or they can get a job at Kinko's. #government
11/10/09
It's reckless to make the argument--and I think this is the argument you're making--that by funding the arts, we're funding something pointless, that isn't necessary to our culture at all. Presumably, you feel this way because you can't see any immediate "profit" in supporting the arts. This mentality of leaving anything that doesn't provide an immediate material benefit to its own devices, supposedly because everything of actual quality will provide said immediate material benefits (and if not, then it deserves to languish unsupported), is exactly the opposite of what the country needs right now.
Like it or not, the US is becoming a strictly service-based economy. A large part of the success of service economies lies in fostering the kind of creativity necessary for the emergence of novel services, things we can do that we never imagined would be necessary or marketable. Supporting artists fits directly into this paradigm. Creative industries are, and always have been, inspired by the works of artists who aren't technically part of the industrial world themselves.
Look at Korea (where I live right now, actually) if you want to see an example of a country struggling to get out of its manufacturing rut and move toward creative, service-based industries. They're learning firsthand what America seems to have forgotten, that creativity isn't just this frivolous thing that means nothing to a culture or a national economy, but that it is something absolutely integral in that regard. The government can only punt the ball on creativity to universities and private interests for so long before we start to see a general lag in our creative economy compared to other highly-developed nations around the world.
For example, the only thing really holding together our tech sector at the moment is the fact that creative foreigners have sought Silicon Valley as the starting place for their businesses. Most of the big tech companies these days are relying more and more on foreign personnel, because honestly, American creativity just isn't being supported anymore. #government
11/09/09
People who think like you really should just stand up and say that you believe the constitution is outdated and should be scrapped for a new, more progressive document altogether. At least you'd be intellectually honest and worthy of a modicum of respect, as opposed to the kabuki dance you people have been doing around it for the last 50 years or so.
Also, people aren't 'stupid' just because their beliefs run in opposition to yours. And calling them that is a very quick way to ensure that what you believe is dismissed as the rantings of a child. #government
11/09/09
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It'd literally be the most important election, ever.
11/09/09
But then again I'm that rare thing, a lefty Constitutional literalist.
For instance, I can make a pretty plausible argument for the second amendment, which I have some fundamental, personal problems with. While it certainly has created a higher street crime rate over the years, I would also venture that the right to bear arms is the reason we've only had one civil war and why, in as militarized a country as this is, we've never had a military coup or fallen prey to military dictatorship. If you doubt me, take a look at the 19th century history of some of our European partners in the grand Democracy experiment.
See, even though gun violence is a terrible thing, the second amendment does what it's supposed to. An active and armed populace is hard to subdue, both from without and from within.
Just to reiterate, before I get piled onto here, I am about as lefty as they come, but I believe you take the Constitution as it is, even the parts you don't personally like. #government
11/09/09
So, let me get this straight...he wants to ban all guns yet legalize all drugs? The problem at the heart of both things is one and the same: people. A gun is a tool which can be used with different results depending on the person using it, just as much as a blunt or a tablet of X is. People can be responsible or reckless. Obviously we've seen that outright banning all drugs has led to ridiculous incarceration rates, drugs with dangerous and variable "inert" ingredients that kill, and since they are on the black market, the sales of many fund terrorist/gang/mob organizations. Look also at what happened during prohibition. We learned our lesson VERY quickly then. I agree that legalizing drugs is a solution to many of these problems - legalize it, tax and regulate the hell out of it.
And after knowing all that, he has the temerity to suggest that people are stupid to not support banning all guns except rifles and shotguns? Fortunately, it doesn't take a "genius" to figure out what will happen then - just look to illegal controlled substances as a good example.
11/09/09
More likely this is because each state has a national guard at the command of its governor.
In any case, correlation is not causation, etc, etc, etc.
11/09/09
Also, I don't really think a populace armed with handguns or rifles is going to be able to compete with a trained military using unmanned drones and tanks. But I take your point. #government
11/09/09
And after knowing all that, he has the temerity to suggest that people are stupid to not support banning all guns except rifles and shotguns?
Emphasis mine. So which is it? #government
11/09/09
I'm sorry, but building a gun and growing weed are entirely different things. I'm not saying that guns wouldn't be available in some measure on the black market if they were banned. But I would imagine that our current source of guns is mainly domestic and that, if we simply shut down all of those factories, the supply would come to a halt rather quickly.
I actually disagree with Ravi. I think that all guns should be banned, because honestly, any motherfucker who's going to use a gun to kill somebody is just going to use what's available, even if we're talking only rifles and shotguns. In fact, I don't see why rifles and shotguns are an exception to the rule. Just because they are commonly used for hunting? Honestly, I'd rather be shot with a 9mm than get shotgunned in the face, but that's just me. #government
11/09/09
Banning guns isn't going to lower the murder rate. #government
11/09/09
Besides that, correlation/causation, &c., and it's not like there haven't been numerous uprisings in the US in its extremely short (compared to Europe's) history that we haven't put down by shooting the crap out of our citizenry. #government
11/09/09
This statement is completely false. A Dremel is a tool which can be used with different results depending on the person using it. A gun is a unitasker. So is a tablet of X.
Don't believe me? Okay, then try using your gun for something other than shooting someone. #government
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That said, I think the second amendment has been effective in accomplishing the stated goals of the framers.
Furthermore, compared to other countries who moved towards democracy in the same era, we've had an unusually long and stable run (barring some notable exceptions). #government
11/09/09
Shit, wait, you probably could. #government
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We have had governors who were apposed to what we were doing in Iraq, but they were stopped by federal law from pulling their guardsmen home, which has seemed to trump the notion that the individual states control the guard like they did a century ago. What we have now is an army, and a Landswehr (look up the term). That still doesn't count the mercenaries that Bush-Cheney hired; are they a third group, or a part of the landswehr?
The effects of Katrina were felt so badly on the gulf because the NG had been stripped and sent to the other gulf, along with all the support equipment that they would have used to help the citizens effected by the hurricane. What few people were left at the armories had no gear with which to rescue and assist as they might have done a decade before.
11/09/09
That is pretty effective to me
[kotaku.com]
If someone wants to kill someone they will find a way to do it.
Besides even if they get rid of guns and ammo people could still make home made bombs using household items.
The weapons are not the problem it is the people who want to kill other people #government
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I could get pretty fucked up if I drank enough Listerine. It's a lot more efficient and quick if I just boot up a spoonful of heroin though. #government
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Outlawing guns does not solve the problem. #government
11/09/09
But the bottom line is that, if the president decided to use the military to lock everything down and form a dictatorship of some sort, there would be 50 states worth of National Guard troops with loyalty to that state (since that's where they're from, where their families are most likely located, etc) under the control of individual governors, ready to fight against such a measure.
This idea that we need the 2nd Amendment because we need civilian militias is completely bogus. National Guard troops serve the same purpose. #government
11/09/09
11/10/09
No one thinks guns invented murder, and no one thinks making guns illegal will eliminate murder.
Guns are simply the quickest, easiest, and most impersonal way to murder a human being ever invented. They are extraordinarily efficient murder machines. Without them people would kill each other a lot less frequently, and even if they still tried at the exact same rate to kill, they would have a lot less success at finishing the job. #government
11/10/09
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The states with the lowest crime rates are ones that allow concealed weapons.
The states with some of the highest crime rates have very strict gun control laws.
Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%.
Violent crimes have gone up in Canada since they added their gun control laws. #government
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"Legalize" is a very... strong term. I'd say create an easy way for illegal immigrants to get citizenship, they are here anyway after all, but don't make it a rubber stamp policy.
Also, legalizing drugs will only get big tobacco & pharmacies on that stuff, and in the interest of making money, start lobbying for the ability to take it out of the public's hands. Better to just decriminalize or legalize ala Amsterdam. #government
11/09/09
Personally, I'd rather let Big Tobacco play because not only do they have effective lobbyists, but I'd like the convenience of buying joints over-the-counter.
Not to mention that it's the tax benefits that'll likely get us over the hump, something they wouldn't be able to derive from just allowing homegrown.
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The last time states were actively decriminalizing and there was legitimate talk of legalization, the rumor, often credited to the tobacco companies was that the manufacturing process wouldn't be any more expensive than that of making cigarettes.
You could easily tack a $10 federal and a $5 state tax on that and still sell a pack for less than street value.
Otherwise, I've always advocated for political purposes that distribution should probably be limited to liquor stores, unless after a time, they could come up with a lower THC-content product, which could be sold in stores licensed for beer and wine.
11/08/09
11/08/09
I'm happy with most of it - it's an incrementalist bill that lays the groundwork for single payer - but there's a lot I don't like. Too many things were left out, and the abortion amendment had no place in a modern society's health care structure. #healthcare
11/08/09
"Think about it. Government is the negation of freedom."
I did think about it, and he's totally right! Oh my god I'm so stoned. #healthcare
11/08/09
11/08/09