I am writing a book called The Modern Jewish Girl's Guide to Gilt. It is all about getting jewelry from unsuspecting men. I am publishing it under the nom "Lorelei Leestein." Look for it soon!
@BookishLookish: I'd read that! Seriously, have these eggheads never heard of "Portnoy's Complaint" or just about any Philip Roth book? *Snort* Yeah, sure, if your childhood is one big guilt trip you're gonna be sooooo happy and well-adjusted as an adult.
True. Society establishes appropriate social boundaries as a way to mitigate human behavior, otherwise, the more extreme among us would be allowed to act out at the rest of us unchecked. This is a detriment to the greater good.
Or as my Dad always says "Guilt. It's the gift that keeps on giving."
But, in the end, self-control does matter, because it can compensate for a lack of guilt. If you have neither? Well, you're probably just a lost cause.
Nah, in that case you are most likely "The Shape" or Hannibal Lecter or a housecat.
Recently I had the worst case of the guilts that it actually drove me to an early morning mass at St. Patrick's WITH a session in the confessional. I hadn't gone to confession in 22 years.
Father said that since it's been decades since my last Confession, any sins I may have committed during that time would also be forgiven, I don't even have to list them.
"But, in the end, self-control does matter, because it can compensate for a lack of guilt. If you have neither? Well, you're probably just a lost cause."
Look at you, with your fancy Gawker column, posting it so early in the morning. Must be nice, to be so young and healthy that you can wake up and work so early in the morning. Me, ah - I can't do that any more what with the arthritis. No, no don't worry about me. I'd think if you woke up so early you'd have some time to call, say hello, but you're busy, I know. I'm so glad you don't think you have to call me or visit me all the time like Mrs. Smith's columnist across the hall. All day long, her columnist calls her to see how she is doing, inviting her out to dinner, talking about maybe having a few grand-columnists. But me? No, I'm fine here on my own. Alone. In the dark. You're young. You go live your life.
Great advice for becoming a successful seven year old, but not really relevant to my experience, thanks.
In trying to sell a memoir and shorter works though, I will admit that stories of guilt (going to rehab, making a change "for the better") will be more likely published than "living without shame". It's just a huge cultural buy-in that has created the stagnancy in which we now live.
But, in the end, self-control does matter, because it can compensate for a lack of guilt. If you have neither? Well, you're probably just a lost cause. Thank you so much Ann Landers.
@momo: Are you implying that all guilt is bad? I think we should judge guilt on a case-to-case basis. I'm definitely sick of religious and sexual guilt (often these are intertwined), but I think we could do with a lot more of the socio-cultural variety.
@momo: I'm with you on this one -- I'd love to see which of those kids are more likely to enter therapy as adults in order to get rid of that nagging feeling at the back of their heads that they've done something wrong. Also, in my experience, guilt is kind of useless -- either someone changes what their doing wrong, in which case picking at old scabs doesn't add anything useful, or they hold out their guilt as a way of disguising the fact that they're damned well going to keep doing what they have been doing, but somehow the fact that they feel guilty about it is supposed to make it better. And then there's all that random guilt about things that people have no business feeling guilty about in the first place...
@momo: Good point. Until, say, Lloyd Blankfein cries at a press conference for ruining the U.S. economy and checks himself into a monastic retreat (heavy on the penance), I'll take my guilt on the side.
@ShanghaiLil: Guilt over breaking a stupid crappy plastic toy is meaningless, yes. I think the study is flawed, in a way, because it could just as well be gauging fear of punishment.
I think guilt only does its best work when the fear of feeling guilty actually prevents people from doing things that they should not do (and by this I mean things that are clearly criminal, like murder or assault or robbery, or clearly socially deleterious, like treating the elderly like shit, driving like an asshole, things like that). In other words, when guilt is working properly as a form of social cohesion, people will rarely experience the feelings associated with it.
One can probably judge the pointlessness of a form of guilt by how often it is experienced by people. The more it's experienced, the less effective, and probably the less socially beneficial it is. So basically, all the religious and sexual guilt in Western society is pointless.
@momo: A lot about the validity of this "study" might be learned, if we knew how they defined "behavior problems" for the next five years, how they were recorded and whether it actually continues beyond elementary school.
But first, for 60 seconds after the toy broke, the psychologists recorded every reaction as the toddlers squirmed, avoided the experimenter’s gaze, hunched their shoulders, hugged themselves and covered their faces with their hands.
These all sound like behaviors that would be exhibited, if the kid was expecting or anticipating parental punishment and not just some internal thing, they might do to themselves.
@skt.smth: I think in graph #2 you're sort of mooshing guilt and shame into one concept. They're different--guilt is an internal dialogue (you vs. God, or some abstract moral authority) while shame is an external dialogue between the individual and the others. It's shame that's the social liant, actually--it prevents people from doing a-hole things because it colors their perception by the others negatively.
I think guilt is great when it results from a larger sense of social and cultural obligation, as in Japan, because that actually translates into hard results (lower crime, etc). The problem with guilt in America is that it mostly comes from religion, and so when we feel guilt, it is still largely an individuated, "spiritual" experience. So what happens is we go out, do stupid shit, and then we feel guilty about it after the fact. Some people actually develop neuroses which compel them to do stupid shit, because the feeling of guilt that follows is the only thing they have that reinforces their ingrained beliefs. But rarely is there anything to reinforce that doing such a thing was stupid in the first place, and so we do it again. Rinse & repeat forever.
It would be good to know what the children and their parents think about all this. My guess is that, on the balance, it beats slum living, and they’d rather take the good with the bad.
This reminds me of the news segment I saw about camel jockeys. Apparently, Bangladeshi families are so poor that they sell their young sons to rich Arabs to act as camel jockeys. Some group got all up in arms and returned the kids to their families...who promptly sold them again.
@pufflehuff: Thank you. There's like 2 Americans in the movie and they look kind of silly.
I just saw it today after hearing how it "romanticized" slum life, and let me tell you, I didn't see it at all. It showed the horror of slum life with bright spots in between.
@mass romantic: Yes indeedy. I saw it for the second time on Tuesday, and it made me feel much more sympathetic towards Salim, who is ostensibly the baddie, but a lot of the bad acts he commits are in order to save Jamal, who is very passive.
A fascinating film, great rollicking entertainment, and non-condescending - for once, it's not about one of us finding ourselves in mystical India.
@independentthinkerdude: I don't think that's the same unless real victims/addicts appeared in those films and I'm not sure recycling can be exploited.
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Or as my Dad always says "Guilt. It's the gift that keeps on giving."
08/25/09
Nah, in that case you are most likely "The Shape" or Hannibal Lecter or a housecat.
08/25/09
Father said that since it's been decades since my last Confession, any sins I may have committed during that time would also be forgiven, I don't even have to list them.
That was cool.
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That, or making a mint in finance.
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In trying to sell a memoir and shorter works though, I will admit that stories of guilt (going to rehab, making a change "for the better") will be more likely published than "living without shame". It's just a huge cultural buy-in that has created the stagnancy in which we now live.
But, in the end, self-control does matter, because it can compensate for a lack of guilt. If you have neither? Well, you're probably just a lost cause. Thank you so much Ann Landers.
08/25/09
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I think guilt only does its best work when the fear of feeling guilty actually prevents people from doing things that they should not do (and by this I mean things that are clearly criminal, like murder or assault or robbery, or clearly socially deleterious, like treating the elderly like shit, driving like an asshole, things like that). In other words, when guilt is working properly as a form of social cohesion, people will rarely experience the feelings associated with it.
One can probably judge the pointlessness of a form of guilt by how often it is experienced by people. The more it's experienced, the less effective, and probably the less socially beneficial it is. So basically, all the religious and sexual guilt in Western society is pointless.
08/25/09
@skt.smth: Seriously.
But first, for 60 seconds after the toy broke, the psychologists recorded every reaction as the toddlers squirmed, avoided the experimenter’s gaze, hunched their shoulders, hugged themselves and covered their faces with their hands.
These all sound like behaviors that would be exhibited, if the kid was expecting or anticipating parental punishment and not just some internal thing, they might do to themselves.
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Isn't camel jockey a slur?
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I just saw it today after hearing how it "romanticized" slum life, and let me tell you, I didn't see it at all. It showed the horror of slum life with bright spots in between.
02/26/09
A fascinating film, great rollicking entertainment, and non-condescending - for once, it's not about one of us finding ourselves in mystical India.
02/25/09
How much did the producers of Rachel Getting Married donate to drug rehabs?
How much did Pixar donate to recycling?
How much did Hellboy donate to... um...
etc.
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