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Faker
If You Were Abused by Sorority Mean Girls, Call Courtney Holt's Lawyer Now!

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The One
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
Well, it turns out that it wasn't some gangs that terrified her into recanting or her being
"re-victimized" by some other nefarious, heartless forces, but being told that a video of what happened may exist.
[www.1010wins.com]

One of the men falsely arrested and charged feared being attacked in jail, due to the nature of the accusations against him. Nice job Danmell Ndonye in ruining the lives of these guys. Even though they've been cleared and released, this will always be connected with their names.

[www.nydailynews.com]
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HypocriticalOath
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
Further to that point - did anyone stop to think that perhaps she was getting re-victimized after the fact so she recanted because she was so upset? Unless you've been raped yourself, you have NO idea about the attack AFTER the attack. False rape claims are pretty rare - if she did do that she is in need of serious mental health help. But my gut, and my info based on talking to someone who was there, is that she freaked out after it happened. But good to know we still live in a Scarlett letter kind of society that double standards women about sex. some things never change. Amazing.
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CherriSpryte
09/17/09

@HypocriticalOath: That was my first thought. After 4 days of questions, the desire to make it all go away can overpower the need for justice.
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HypocriticalOath
09/17/09

@CherriSpryte: Exactly. And I love the way every man I've spoken to about this immediately, magically believes the girl was lying. Not only do men (generally speaking) not understand what it is to always have the fear of being physically overpowered, but the fear of being re-attacked or re-victimized by the system is extremely powerful. Why is it so many rapes go unreported? The rape victim does not WANT TO LIVE THROUGH IT AGAIN AND AGAIN.
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The One
09/17/09

@HypocriticalOath: And in this case, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN AT ALL.
[www.nypost.com]
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HypocriticalOath
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
EXCUSE ME. I have actually talked with one of the security guys who responded to this issue and guess what? First on the scene and his impression was that she totally was raped. If she was drinking, no WAY should that 'train' have happened. I went to Hofstra, drank too much but under no circumstances would I have consented to a five guy train. EVER. But I can tell you I have been drunk enough to have fallen into circumstances where guys could have taken advantage of me. So before everyone starts jumping on the alleged victim - even if she was drunk and said yes, it is still considered a crime in NY.
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The One
09/17/09

@HypocriticalOath: What expertise does this "security guy" have in assessing crime victims?
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HypocriticalOath
09/17/09

@The One: Well for starters, more than some jacka$$ sitting at his computer writing 'faker' on a blog. Second, this guy's got about 15 years in security biz, other assorted emergency response training as well. I don't want to offer too many details but safe to say he wasn't some rent-a-cop like those douchebag parole officers in CA who couldn't figure out that Jaycee was living there with two kids that were a product of Garrison raping her for years. SOME security folks actually have accurate perception.
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The One
09/17/09

@HypocriticalOath: Too bad it turns out there's a video of the incident, which is what led her to recant, not some nefarious forces victimizing her over and over again.

So much for your big shot pal. And it looks like you owe Andrew an apology.
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Lymed
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
This whole incident reminds me a bit too much of Testimony
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OrvaKolibri
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
I think this says a lot for keeping identities of victims and accused secret... avoiding inevitable media furore in favour of, perhaps, justice...
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skt.smth
09/17/09

@OrvaKolibri: So people can just disappear into the justice system and never be heard from again. That sounds like an awesome idea, actually.
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DuckDuckGoose
09/17/09

@skt.smth: If that's a legitimate concern, you could give the accused the option of being named or not.
Otherwise, naming both parties or not naming them has always sounded good to me -- so long as there is some determination that just naming the victim wouldn't deter a significant number from reporting the crime (and no, I don't know what "significant" means, but lawmakers draw lines every day).
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skt.smth promoted this comment Edited by DuckDuckGoose at 09/17/09 9:49 AM DuckDuckGoose was starred DuckDuckGoose was unstarred

skt.smth
09/17/09

@DuckDuckGoose: So the justice system that is detaining you can be trusted to honestly administer an option to detainees as to whether they'd like to be named publicly or not? I'd much rather that law enforcement just had a policy of naming detainees and stuck to it as a matter of principle.
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DuckDuckGoose
09/17/09

@skt.smth: Fair enough. But if rape suspects are to be treated the same as all others, how about applying the principle of naming the complainant and the accused equally?
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skt.smth
09/17/09

@DuckDuckGoose: Because the accuser isn't being held in detention by police. And anyway, non-minor accusers usually are named by police. Cases of sexual assault have become an exception to the rule.
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DuckDuckGoose
09/17/09

@skt.smth: And that exception was what we were all talking about in this little thread, I thought.
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Edited by DuckDuckGoose at 09/17/09 10:40 AM DuckDuckGoose was starred DuckDuckGoose was unstarred

skt.smth
09/17/09

@DuckDuckGoose: Sure, if only there weren't such a horrid history of shaming rape accusers and dragging them through the mud for daring to tell the authorities what happened.

I think it's pretty clear that the public gains no real use from knowing the identity of a rape victim, nor does the police department suffer any detrimental effects from keeping it a secret. And since the rape victim is not being detained by police, there is no threat to the public interest either.
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Shini: R.O.A.C.H.
09/17/09

@skt.smth: The damage done to someone who has been wrongfully accused of rape (add a 5 times multiplier for child rape) isn't something that a person just bounces back from.

Once they've been convicted, I don't care. A jury has seen a case through and I'm willing to believe that they made an appropriate decision. Before that? I don't think any names should be released to the public. In this case, it appears that she suffered remorse for her actions and dragged a handful of people through the mud for it. She wasted the time of the police, the courts and the school because she lied. She wasted taxpayer money and we'll still never know who she is.

Worse yet? She's eroding credibility of women who actually suffer abuse and rape.
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skt.smth
09/17/09

@Shini: R.O.A.C.H.: How do you know that we'll never know who she is? If the police charge her with a crime, I'm sure they'll release her name.
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DuckDuckGoose
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
OK, so the five-on-one sex in the bathroom stall was consensual, which makes the smiling young bastards I see in the morning newspaper lucky bastards instead. Good luck getting this wiped from the Internet, good luck getting past a decent personnel department. The woman clearly has issues. So do the men.
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naugahydeinplainsight promoted this comment Edited by DuckDuckGoose at 09/17/09 9:33 AM DuckDuckGoose was starred DuckDuckGoose was unstarred

nozer
09/17/09

@DuckDuckGoose: This I agree with. Even if it really wasn't a "rape" (and at what point does it become one?), it sounds like something fucked up happened, and both parties have some deep issues. Not that five-on-one-sex is inherently "fucked up," but the fact that she first called it a rape makes me think it wasn't completely consensual if it even was at all.
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kissmyapp
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
If this were an episode of Law & Order: SVU, this wouldn't be over. Stabler and Benson would prove that she was threatened by the psycho mom of one of these guys. I'm just sayin.
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heywhat
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
Well if this girl was sexually abused as a child and/or has mental health issues I hope she gets the help she needs. However, she has done a great disservice to actual victims especially victims of on-campus gang rapes. They are already accussed giving implied consent (either by being intoxicated, dressing provactively, or just being around the "popular" guys in the first place who obviously don't need to rape anyone b/c lots of girls will have sex with them) and face uphill battle from the beginning. This will certainly not help.
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naugahydeinplainsight promoted this comment Edited by heywhat at 09/17/09 9:19 AM heywhat was starred heywhat was unstarred

Adah
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
I wish every legitimate rape case got as much publicity as every fake rape case. If only because I just know that a certain segment of the male population at work today won't be able to stop talking about this, and how it proves that all women are out to ruin all male lives.
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Moloko
09/17/09

@Adah: The disproportionate rage that permeates discussions of rape is really disturbing.
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crotchety
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
Someone named their kid "Stalin"? I thought that along with "Adolph" that name was pretty much buried.
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BettyCrocker
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
First clue? It was a Hofstra student. Those noisy bitches scream loud enough to wake the dead over a sale at Nordstroms. Raping one and retaining one's hearing would be totally out of the question.
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Moloko
09/17/09

@BettyCrocker: Indeed, and the levels of outrage about false accusations will outstrip anything that's bandied about every time someone claims they were raped. Because, you know, WHAT IF SHE WAS LYING?!11
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BettyCrocker
09/17/09

@Moloko: You are probably right. However, there's another group of people who should be extremely outraged:

Women who have actually been raped, or assaulted, or beaten.

Because our fibbing Hofstra girl mocked the real pain that these women went through with her shitty self-serving lies, and contributed to doubt in the jurors' minds as they deliberated the case of an actual victim.
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Moloko
09/17/09

@BettyCrocker: Someone said down the page that she had a history of childhood abuse. If that's true, it rather skews the point.

As for false accusations for malicious gain and their effect on conviction rates, I'd really rather blame a misogynistic society that questions what the woman was wearing, her sexual history and even now, doesn't think marital rape exists. Oh, and of course, that men can't be raped, because let's face it, these myths hurt them too.
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Edited by Moloko at 09/17/09 8:54 AM Moloko was starred Moloko was unstarred

BettyCrocker
09/17/09

@Moloko: If a rapist had a history of childhood abuse (and many do), would that skew the point? It doesn't for me.

She lied - for whatever reason - and she should be prosecuted for it. If funny Uncle Albert molested her, let her try that as a defense.

Do you know that in the financial services industry, like many others, the licensing form requires you to answer whether you were ever charged with a crime? Not convicted, only charged. These guys are screwed unless somehow the record of the charge can be expunged, which law enforcement seldom does.
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Moloko
09/17/09

@BettyCrocker: Sorry, you lost me at the bellowing about BLACK AND WHITE and how things are only ever one or the other.
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skt.smth
09/17/09

@BettyCrocker: Actually law enforcement routinely expunges portions of criminal records, on a case-by-case basis of course, upon appealing to a judge. Some states make it easier than others, but it's a fairly routine process, and if these guys are totally cleared, then I don't see why a judge would turn down the request to have the charges cleaned off their records.
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Edited by skt.smth at 09/17/09 9:06 AM skt.smth was starred skt.smth was unstarred

BettyCrocker
09/17/09

@skt.smth: Because of all the media attention and (correct in this case) outrage, these 4 might have a shot at getting the charges expunged and sealed.

Then they can hope and pray that HR for their next prospective employer won't Google them before their interviews. 'Cause that might happen.
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skt.smth
09/17/09

@BettyCrocker: HR will probably find actual pictures of the consensual gangbang scene via their Facebook pages first anyway. Just sayin'.
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Edited by skt.smth at 09/17/09 9:09 AM skt.smth was starred skt.smth was unstarred

BettyCrocker
09/17/09

@skt.smth: Possibly. Is it legal to refuse employment to someone for sexin' in a bathroom stall?
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skt.smth
09/17/09

@BettyCrocker: Probably. Of course, nobody needs to know that the refusal of employment was based on knowledge of sexin' in a bathroom stall, either.
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BettyCrocker
09/17/09

@skt.smth: Soundtrack provided by The Epoxies:

Hey there, baby doll
come meet me in the bathroom stall
or anywhere, anywhere you please
hey there, lover please
I'm begging you, I'm on my knees
it's cruel to make me wait a second more

[Chorus:]
'cause you know you've got me
(yeah you've got me)
I can't wait
(I cant wait)
wait to have you on the floor
wait to get inside your door
I can't stand it anymore
oh no

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Richard Petty Bourgeoisie
09/17/09

@skt.smth: I'm quite sure it's not illegal to tell an applicant, "We're not hiring you because of sexin' in the bathroom stall." What would the claim be? Bukkake discrimination?
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skt.smth
09/17/09

@Richard Petty Bourgeoisie: It depends. What size was the cum goblet?
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Edited by skt.smth at 09/17/09 10:04 AM skt.smth was starred skt.smth was unstarred

BettyCrocker
09/17/09

@Richard Petty Bourgeoisie: Hitting The Stall Sexin' Ceiling
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skt.smth
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
Now watch as all of the oppressed males come out of the woodwork to act like this says something about the bigger picture, as if successfully prosecuting a real rapist still isn't one of the most difficult things to pull off in an American court of law.
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Edited by skt.smth at 09/17/09 7:47 AM skt.smth was starred skt.smth was unstarred

Moloko
09/17/09

@skt.smth: Yeah, derailing is awesome.
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momof3wildkids
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
Wait a sec. They aren't publishing this woman's name after continuing to parade these wrongly accused men's names? She is 18 so there isn't a juvenile issue here.

I hope they nail her to a wall.
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Moloko
09/17/09

@momof3wildkids: I hope none of your three wild kids is ever raped. False accusations are incredibly rare, and quite a large amount of them are submitted by people with mental health issues.
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squeakel
09/17/09

@momof3wildkids:

Agreed. We're supposed to feel sympathy for someone who makes a false accusation like this but not for the people who were falsely accused?
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squeakel
09/17/09

@Moloko:

I'm sure most (all?) rapists have mental health issues as well. Should they not be named?
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Moloko
09/17/09

@squeakel: Uhhh...people accused of other crimes are often named.
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skt.smth
09/17/09

@momof3wildkids: Perhaps they aren't naming her because she hasn't been charged with a crime yet. Way to jump off the cliff without checking first to make sure your bow tie is straight.
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Edited by skt.smth at 09/17/09 8:56 AM skt.smth was starred skt.smth was unstarred

Moloko
09/17/09

@skt.smth: dude, look who you're replying to!
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skt.smth
09/17/09

@Moloko: I know. It's barely worth the electrons, right?
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squeakel
09/17/09

@skt.smth:

The accused rapists weren't charged either and they were named and their photos made public.
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squeakel
09/17/09

@Moloko:

You misunderstood my point, I think.
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skt.smth
09/17/09

@squeakel: [www.huffingtonpost.com]

"Four suspects have been arraigned on rape and other charges."
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Moloko
09/17/09

@squeakel: You seem to be under the erroneous impression that you're cleverer than you are. I feel sorry for you.
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momof3wildkids
09/17/09

@Moloko: I'm glad false accusations are incredibly rare. It is hard enough to prosecute a rape case as it is without having women making false claims as this one did. My point is that we are quite aware of the four young men's names as they are STILL being plastered in the newspapers and CNN. Innocent men. Yet, this woman who acknowledges she lied is a still referred to by CNN and Nassau Police as an "alleged victim."

Mental health issues or not, she appears to be aware that she lied as she admits having consensual sex with these men. I really hope she gets the help she needs, but I hope that there are consequences for her actions.
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squeakel
09/17/09

@skt.smth:

You're correct. I missed that, but people are accused and their photo and names printed all the time. The Yale guy for instance.
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SisterCarrie
09/17/09

@momof3wildkids: Four little altar boys who, oh, by the way, pulled a train on a shit-faced girl at five in the morning. Bad things happen to bad people. Now do us all a favor and shut the fuck up for a while.
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squeakel
09/17/09

@Moloko:

Personal insults are always the last resort of a person who lacks a good argument.
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Moloko
09/17/09

@squeakel: Mine was better than yours.
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heywhat
09/17/09

@SisterCarrie: What? Didn't she just recant her RAPE accussations and you still think they are bad people? Way to miss the point completely. No one said they were altar boys but now they deserved to be falsely accussed of rape? WTF?
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momof3wildkids
09/17/09

@skt.smth: We knew this lab guy's name days ago and he STILL isn't charged in the murder of Annie Le.

She, despite the status of her mental state, has admitted to committing a crime. She has dragged four young men through the mud and yet her name is protected? I am 100% for protecting rape victim's identities, but she is not a rape victim here. The victims are the four men wrongly accused that have been in jail this whole time.
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skt.smth
09/17/09

@squeakel: And he was a "person of interest" to the police department. I'm not saying that there aren't discrepancies in policy from one department to the next, but it's not clear that this Hofstra woman has made the complete transition from alleged victim to alleged criminal just yet.

@momof3wildkids: What do you want? There's no way they can take it back now, and it's not exactly this woman's responsibility that their names were released to the public. The police department were the ones who made that call. And actually, I rather prefer to live in a society where, when people get pulled into police departments and charged with crimes, they aren't just blank faces. There is a legitimate function to releasing the details of those who've been detained by police. It's one of the things that separates America (at least domestically) from, say, Iran, or anywhere else in the world where people just disappear into the judicial system, never to be found again. Over time, we have opted not to reveal the details of particularly sensitive individuals (minors and certain types of victims), but they are exceptions to what is, in fact, a pretty good general rule.
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Edited by skt.smth at 09/17/09 9:30 AM skt.smth was starred skt.smth was unstarred

skt.smth
09/17/09

@momof3wildkids: If only we got half as outraged about actual rape as we do about false claims of rape...
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momof3wildkids
09/17/09

@skt.smth: I for one am equally outraged. I happened to be assaulted while in college and I know how difficult it is to go to the police, let alone bring charges. My incident happened just after the Tawana Brawley mess.

This woman's actions makes it that much more difficult for the true rape victims to be believed. That is what has me so jacked about her actions.
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skt.smth
09/17/09

@momof3wildkids: If decisions in rape cases merely came down to whether the jury believed the victim's story or not, we'd see a lot more rapes convicted. I don't think this woman's false accusation hinders the prospect of convicting rapists any more than the systems involved in investigating and prosecuting the cases does all by itself. I think this is a clear case of "meh" when rapists actually get convicted vs. "OH MY GOD HOW DARE YOU LIE" when one in a thousand makes a false accusation. The reaction to false accusations is always outsized and irrational, regardless of the basis it claims as its foundation (typically unsubstantiated, entirely speculative things like "false claims hurt real rape cases" and "the lives of those poor men are ruined *SOB*")
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Edited by skt.smth at 09/17/09 10:56 AM skt.smth was starred skt.smth was unstarred

momof3wildkids
09/17/09

@skt.smth: There is a difference here that you aren't considering. In most states, the rape victim's identity is not named, but the accused are. The "meh" as you put it may have a lot to do with the fact that there isn't an identified person to rally behind.

Additionally, as a victim of assault, I can tell you that I didn't want any fanfare when those who assaulted me were convicted. I was happy to have it go away.

I can tell you from personal experience that very public false rape accusations do have an effect on the jury. Tawana Brawley was brought up in my case's closing arguments. Yea, that felt great.
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SisterCarrie
09/17/09

@momof3wildkids: I am convinced now that you are full of shit. You just make it up as you go along, don't you? If this were a post about Rwanda, you would have done relief work there. If this were a post about Armenian genocide, you would be claiming to have an Armenian grandfather. Who are you and why are you protected by Gawker? Now what? Is this one of those insults you blow off or do you act all insulted? You're a bright guy, let's see what you do.
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momof3wildkids
09/17/09

@SisterCarrie: Well this is rich. You are now accusing me of making up my assault and you want Gawker to not "protect" me. I find that amusing considering your posts. BTW, not a guy.
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lacieca01
09/17/09

@SisterCarrie: Don't forget that when the discussion was about health care, "Mom" claimed at one point to work for a health care provider; when the discussion turned to higher marginal tax rates for millionaires, "Mom" was a millionaire.

Thank you for calling bullshit when bullshit is served. Gawker, is covering the execution of habitual, unfunny liars?

Oh, and if I have not made myself clear enough, I will finish by saying:

Momof3wildkids: You lie!
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SisterCarrie
09/17/09

@momof3wildkids: Two minutes after this response, you posted a "clever" comment on the Ailes story. That is not the action of an assault victim, one who has lived through a trial of "her" assaulters, and who has just been told that "she" is full of shit. Go away.
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momof3wildkids
09/17/09

@SisterCarrie: As my assault happened in '88, you could say I've moved on from it. It still pisses me off when rapists get off scott free and when people are falsely accused of rape.

@lacieca01: I know you may find it hard to believe that a woman who had a career in health care who happens to be fortunate financially could have been sexually assaulted, but it happened. I guess you are now part of the "raper" movement.

Moving on from this post.
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The One
09/17/09

@heywhat: Sounds like SisterCarrie is a Jezebel denizen.
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The One
09/17/09

@squeakel: The NY Post named her in an article this morning.
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squeakel
09/17/09

@Moloko:

Good one.
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Goosed
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
People who have been abused in the past will often see abuse when there is none. I wouldn't rush to the judgment about her motives. She probably didn't sit around for days dreaming up ways to destroy those guys. More likely, she has problems making sense of reality.
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PaisleyPajamas
09/17/09

@Goosed: You said it best. This is often the case when children accuse a trusted adult (teacher, coach, babysitter, etc.) of abuse when there was none--they conflate the abuse at the hands of an adult they trusted (parent, family member, etc.) onto someone else as a means of coping.
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eXo
09/17/09

@Goosed: If you go and read the stories she not only took back the accusation, she admitted it was consensual... this means that rather than just saying a rape happened, she actually did partake in some type of consensual sex with all 4 men. So its not like she was sitting around daydreaming ways to attack them, more likely after it was over she felt guilty and decided to just call it rape.
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PaisleyPajamas promoted this comment Edited by eXo at 09/17/09 8:52 AM eXo was starred eXo was unstarred

PamBeesley
09/17/09

@Goosed: I have no basis for this statement but, what if she was raped and fear motivated her to say she lied. Who knows?
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The One
09/17/09

@PamBeesley: Is that more or less than the fear of being prosecuted for filing a false police report?

She could have sent 4 or 5 young men to prison for a VERY long time, so any prosecutor is probably going to look very seriously at that.
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1b34k
09/17/09

@The One: I take it you know very little about gangs on Long Island .... cause you know, growing up close to the area in question ...not saying she was threatened here... but hypothetically if I was given a choice between the prosecutor and a threat ..... I'd go with the jail time
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The One
09/17/09

@1b34k: I know a little about MS 13, but not much more about Lawn Guyland gangs.

Do you have any reason to believe that any of the guys accused are affiliated with a gang?
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waldenasta
09/17/09

In reply to Faker
This is what's wrong with the freaking internet and the rush to judgement that people make all the time. Everyone was vilifying these guys and now it turns out that she was lying. I just hope that they put her silly ass in jail for almost sending four, five, men to prison.
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