The only American car I would ever consider buying now is a Ford, a company that has taken no bailout money. GM and Chrysler can go right out of business altogether for all I care.
Now G.M. is sinking billions into the Chevy Volt, an all-electric car that will cost twice as much as a Prius, and still be a Chevy, so no one will want it.
Hmmm, how about consumer igornance? Last I heard the Volt was a plug in hybrid.
Not to mention the simple fact that GM's total employee cost per hour is $70, compared to $45 for Toyota.
"And the stubborn unions that crippled the industry refuse to negotiate in good faith, demanding crazy things like "equitable sacrifices from bondholders"
- why negotiate when they can have the administration come in and screw the bondholders by forcing them to take 29 cents on the dollar? This is one of the reasons people buy bonds; in the event of bankruptcy, they get paid out first. Do laws even matter anymore?
GM was like a junkie looking for its next fix. They gobbled up relatively-successful brands and forced them to dance until they died. Meanwhile, they hedged their bets by lining DC's pockets instead of investing in their own talent. Recently, they've taken a huge interest in building in China -- where the government can seize their factories at any moment and nationalize them.
GM has never been a auto-maker, it's a greedy short-thinking conglomerate. (I can say this coming from a GM-family.)
And now, the US government will be stuck with the bill for bailing out pensions. Great.
@meechybee: wait, you're criticizing GM for being short-thinking, AND investing in China? Pick one, buddy.
China, Russia, and India are emerging markets and will be larger markets than the U.S. soon. The point of business is continued expansion. Sometimes this involves risk. I sincerely doubt China would want to piss off the country who's debt and investments it owns by taking over a major industrial presence.
And I'm pretty sure they haven't been in DC's pockets for a while, if you notice the disparity between the treatments banks got and the treatment of the auto industry.
the $1000 extra per car is a total red herring. due to the massive employee buy-outs, staggering concessions, and forth-coming two-tiered wage system, it's probably more like an extra $400. if that.
but hey! we can still hate on unions because those stupid working poors didn't go to college - who are they to try and get a piece of the pie?!
What Pie? You don't get any pie. If you want some pie then you work for it, and you compete with other workers to keep your job. Not get someone to negotiate a nice employment package for you that pays even when you don't work. It has nothing to do with going to college, but more with unrealistic expectations of compensation that you might not deserve. The problem is that GM has negotiated itself into this mess, and union negotiate employee benefits have historically been a very large part of the reason for GM's downfall. So don't be talking like the innocent factory worker is getting screwed because he's being blamed for having too nice a benefits package, and it's not his fault because he should get one. Admit that the employees and their unions have helped kill the company they were working for by bleeding it to death (in the nicest way possible). Learn from your mistake, and figure out what you have to do to adapt and succeed in this constantly changing world, instead of relying on an unsustainable support system from a failing company, and making excuses to justify this faulty entitlement premise.
GM has 300,000 employees. At $50 billion, that is $167,000 per job "saved". They have a further 800,000 retirees (that's right, 300,000 supporting 800,000). So if you want to toss them in, that is $50,000 per current and retired worker. If you gave drivers $15,000, say, towards a GM car, it would do a lot more towards propping up this mess.
Wait, aren't the Gubmint, the Hippies, and the Elitists more or less all the same group at this point? I'm not sure if the Gremlins belong in there as well.
So you're sincere here: "Once again those foreign-owned plants did it right. Their non-unionized workers contribute to the cost of their own health care"
And snarky here: "Ok, so, G.M. spends more than $1,000 per car manufactured on the entirely useless and stupid act of "providing health care to current and retired workers".
First of all, it was $2,000 per car differential. Second, workers retired after working 30 years at age 50-60 with nearly-full salary, gold-plated healthcare (no co-pay, full dental and eyecare) - for another 30 years. Give me a business model where THAT works.
Unions got a "job bank" where if you were fired - you still got paid in full. How about work rules, where the guy who works in a slow area can't be moved to a busy one, even though he could do the job?
management of GM was tone deaf, made horrible decisions, and deserves the bulk of the blame. But a union set up so it is rewarded more for going down with teh ship rather than trying to right it is also a problem.
I had a Pontiac that was in the shop 17 times in 2 years. Then I got a Honda. I have never bought American since - give Americans something WORTHY of purchase, and they will buy it.
@Lymed: yeah, sorry, I'm turning into my mom, nonsequiturs and all. My bullets should have been: Union. Management. Quality. Those are the "Big 3", in my mind.
@FormerEnglishMajor: one question. I am not arguing the reliability of you Pontiac here or questioning your purchase of a Honda. My question is when is the last time you walked into an American dealership and was seriously considering buying a car. My theory is this: people should buy what they want. However, they should at least do research before they buy. If your last time in an American dealership was your Pontiac and have just bought Honda's since you cannot say "- give Americans something WORTHY of purchase, and they will buy it" because it is obviously not true in your case. This is the issue. There are many people who will go out an buy a Camry (insert any generic car here, it doesn't matter) simply because they heard it is a good car, and while that is the case, if they do not actually shop around and realize what American companies offer today, how can we expect anything to change. If you have done research and still wound up at a foreign brand, I have no arguments with you then because it is your money, your purchase, and you need to enjoy it.
@Bullitt417: I'm sorry but that's bullshit. Brand perception is driven not only by quality but also by the companies selling the product. While some consumers may want to spend time researching endless streams of information, most people don't have the time, energy or interest in trying to delve into whether Fords or GM's have improved in quality because they are happy with the imports they brought and drove (for many, many years).
Automakers need to win buyer's over. Simply putting the onus on shoppers isn't going to do the trick.
Now G.M. is sinking billions into the Chevy Volt, an all-electric car that will cost twice as much as a Prius, and still be a Chevy, so no one will want it.
And Honda's new insight will also be cheaper.
My problem with GM was that its cars were more expensive than identical imports. For example, the Toyota Matrix is the same damn exact car as the Pontiac Vibe. But the Vibe is more expensive. Not necessarily due to labor costs or whatever. But rather due to the fact that GM had to license the Vibe's design from Toyota (which has a nice revenue stream from licensing its designs to GM as well as its first and second generation hybrid technologies).
And before anyone goes blah blah rebate, the process of negotiating rebates and charge backs and whatever is so fucking stressful and such a mix bag in terms of effectively lowering a car's cost that I (and many people) will just buy the cheaper foreign car and just pass on the bullshit.
Also, GM make crappy cars for a long as time. Changing quality perception requires a big commitment from the manufacturer (See Hyundai).
@Trulymadlyme: And changing quality perception means improving quality itself, which requires a viable plan and top-to-bottom discipline to see it through (see Toyota's "Lean Manufacturing" technique, which was adapted for use with U.S. workers).
06/01/09
06/01/09
shareholders failed to oust management that was blind and deaf to the market
management failed in every possible way
labor is just that -- labor
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06/01/09
Hmmm, how about consumer igornance? Last I heard the Volt was a plug in hybrid.
06/01/09
The best classification is an extended range electric.
06/01/09
06/01/09
06/01/09
06/01/09
06/01/09
06/01/09
"And the stubborn unions that crippled the industry refuse to negotiate in good faith, demanding crazy things like "equitable sacrifices from bondholders"
- why negotiate when they can have the administration come in and screw the bondholders by forcing them to take 29 cents on the dollar? This is one of the reasons people buy bonds; in the event of bankruptcy, they get paid out first. Do laws even matter anymore?
06/01/09
06/01/09
GM has never been a auto-maker, it's a greedy short-thinking conglomerate. (I can say this coming from a GM-family.)
And now, the US government will be stuck with the bill for bailing out pensions. Great.
06/01/09
China, Russia, and India are emerging markets and will be larger markets than the U.S. soon. The point of business is continued expansion. Sometimes this involves risk. I sincerely doubt China would want to piss off the country who's debt and investments it owns by taking over a major industrial presence.
And I'm pretty sure they haven't been in DC's pockets for a while, if you notice the disparity between the treatments banks got and the treatment of the auto industry.
06/01/09
but hey! we can still hate on unions because those stupid working poors didn't go to college - who are they to try and get a piece of the pie?!
06/01/09
06/01/09
What Pie? You don't get any pie. If you want some pie then you work for it, and you compete with other workers to keep your job. Not get someone to negotiate a nice employment package for you that pays even when you don't work. It has nothing to do with going to college, but more with unrealistic expectations of compensation that you might not deserve. The problem is that GM has negotiated itself into this mess, and union negotiate employee benefits have historically been a very large part of the reason for GM's downfall. So don't be talking like the innocent factory worker is getting screwed because he's being blamed for having too nice a benefits package, and it's not his fault because he should get one. Admit that the employees and their unions have helped kill the company they were working for by bleeding it to death (in the nicest way possible). Learn from your mistake, and figure out what you have to do to adapt and succeed in this constantly changing world, instead of relying on an unsustainable support system from a failing company, and making excuses to justify this faulty entitlement premise.
06/01/09
06/01/09
06/01/09
06/01/09
06/01/09
06/01/09
And snarky here: "Ok, so, G.M. spends more than $1,000 per car manufactured on the entirely useless and stupid act of "providing health care to current and retired workers".
First of all, it was $2,000 per car differential. Second, workers retired after working 30 years at age 50-60 with nearly-full salary, gold-plated healthcare (no co-pay, full dental and eyecare) - for another 30 years. Give me a business model where THAT works.
Unions got a "job bank" where if you were fired - you still got paid in full. How about work rules, where the guy who works in a slow area can't be moved to a busy one, even though he could do the job?
management of GM was tone deaf, made horrible decisions, and deserves the bulk of the blame. But a union set up so it is rewarded more for going down with teh ship rather than trying to right it is also a problem.
I had a Pontiac that was in the shop 17 times in 2 years. Then I got a Honda. I have never bought American since - give Americans something WORTHY of purchase, and they will buy it.
06/01/09
06/01/09
06/01/09
06/01/09
06/01/09
Automakers need to win buyer's over. Simply putting the onus on shoppers isn't going to do the trick.
06/01/09
And Honda's new insight will also be cheaper.
My problem with GM was that its cars were more expensive than identical imports. For example, the Toyota Matrix is the same damn exact car as the Pontiac Vibe. But the Vibe is more expensive. Not necessarily due to labor costs or whatever. But rather due to the fact that GM had to license the Vibe's design from Toyota (which has a nice revenue stream from licensing its designs to GM as well as its first and second generation hybrid technologies).
And before anyone goes blah blah rebate, the process of negotiating rebates and charge backs and whatever is so fucking stressful and such a mix bag in terms of effectively lowering a car's cost that I (and many people) will just buy the cheaper foreign car and just pass on the bullshit.
Also, GM make crappy cars for a long as time. Changing quality perception requires a big commitment from the manufacturer (See Hyundai).
06/01/09