The Letty Cottin Pogrebin letter in the Times was superb.
While she was enjoying her "post-feminist" privileges and denigrating the radical actions, litigation and legislative campaigns that made her success possible, others of us continued the fight against all the gender inequities Ms. Lipman seems to have just discovered — unequal pay, the glass ceiling, job ghettos, media sexism (not to mention rape and violence against women) — none of which is very funny. Yet she trots out the old canard that women need a sense of humor before they can demand their rights.
"But Dowd was not just crying for herself. She was crying for all of the pundits and journalists and bloggers who worry that another Clinton Administration will turn us into Clinton-hating hacks. She was crying for all of us who remember how the peace and prosperity of the Clinton era led directly into the war and economic downturn of the Bush years, something we don't want to happen again. She feels our pain."
For a good laugh: [jonswift.blogspot.com]
This is not the first time Ms. Shaidle, has taken on the menace of the poor. "The so-called poor have cars and cable tv and free medical," she wrote last year. "They live in America in the 21st century, where school is free and libraries are free and a bus ticket to a better town costs less than a bag of crack. If they're 'poor' it's because they were too lazy and stupid to a) finish high school and/or b) keep their pants on. Jesus had something to say about folks who didn't properly manage their money or other people's." Although I am not familiar with Jesus' admonitions against poor accounting practices, she has a point. Instead of waging class war against the wealthy who worked hard for their money, we should be attacking the poor. After a lot of unsuspecting investors were lured by the poor into putting their hard-earned money into credit defaults swaps and tricked into giving deadbeats subprime mortgages, which ruined our entire economy, haven't poor people done enough harm to this country? #joannelipman
The column was self-serving, but it wasn't only self-serving. I'm sure that Lippman has experienced sexism. The grand irony is that if she had colleagues who were vocal about it they were likely to be sidelined as troublemakers, pessimists, individuals not really interested in their work and the benefit of the company.
Relative free riders like Lippman kept their mouths shut, understanding that it wasn't in their interest to rock the boat. Then when the boat capsizes, they're a martyr to the cause.
The 9/11 point isn't completely nuts. I'm saying I agree, but I remember reading an interview with Susan Faludi in which she attributed the success of "Backlash" in part to its having been published before or after the Gulf War (I can't remember when the book came out.) The Gulf War was "Boy's Time," I think she called it; peacetime was "Girls' Time."
Lippman seems to be saying that in national security emergencies such as 9/11 the rights of women [and others, I might add] are subsumed by the immediate crisis -- We'll get back to you girls/minorities later.
@Seeräuber Jenny: By the way, Susan Faludi won the Pulitzer for Explanatory Journalism in 1991 -- for the Wall Street Journal. I just read on the nytpicker site that other WSJ women reporters won Pulitzers before that. Is Lipman saying that none of those women were respected?
Thank you for running this. That essay was horrible. No mention of neoconservatism--probably the biggest force to stall the women's movement--and instead citing 9/11? I wish the NYT had allowed comments on that piece, they wouldn't heard an earful.
My mother sent me this piece--it totally lost me when she tried to tie sexism to 9/11. Frankly, the kind of sexism she's referring to has been around for a while (hello, Geraldine Ferraro's run for VP?)--the internet just gave more a voice to it. The same way the internet gave a voice to a lot of ugliness--and it was the rise of the internet, not (sigh) 9/11, that may have made it more apparent.
It's a pity, cause she does have some good points towards the end (like the "women don't ask" section, which I firmly believe in)....but it's lost in her sorry rhetoric and bizarre logical fallacies. #joannelipman
@Lux Alptraum: Care to elaborate on your views re: Ferraro, Lux?
I've never really heard anyone go to bat for Ferraro as a substantial, game-changing figure, due to her extremely modest political talents I suppose...but I'm willing to believe that the time is ripe for a little contrarianism on this topic.
@skahammer: I'm referring more specifically to the fact that when Geraldine Ferraro ran for VP, lines like, "Let's put three boobs in the White House!" were common. It wasn't meant to be a pro-Ferraro statement, more to point out that sexist comments lobbed at women in, or aspiring to, a position of power are nothing new. #joannelipman
I think I agree with this rant, but I'm not sure. I don't understand it because I'm having a hard time parsing your sentences. To whit:
Can we spell out the joke, here? The one way Lipman's completely wrong about men and women meeting in the middle is the example she set: that they both possess the capability to be equally as disgustingly vapid when it comes to the captain punching holes in their sinking ship. Both men and women, hand in hand, can disregard integrity for grossly incompetent, morale-shuttering selfishness!
I suppose I might be exceedingly dense, but I'm not sure what you're spelling here. I offer this one example because I badly want to understand you. #joannelipman
@heartbreakturnip: For serious. And I wanted to take my proverbial red pen to the paragraph before the one you highlighted. Damn it, Foster. Fighting the good fight looks a lot better when you proofread. #joannelipman
@Seeräuber Jenny: Okay guys, you're all correct on this. Sometimes I'm not the wordsmith I'd like to think of myself as. Fuckups! They happen. For clarification -- and La Mareada did a nice job -- let me try this again for you guys:
The ironic peak of Joanne Lipman kvetching about equality between the sexes is: she's an awesome example of how far the women's equality movement has actually come. In 2009, both Graydon Carter and Joanne Lipman, man and woman, can completely fuck their respective media properties over through out-and-out selfishness and naivity.
@Foster Kamer: Well said. I've been saying for a long time that the day when the number of dimwit, half-assed, short-sighted, slow, generally incompetent, self-dealing and avowedly asskissing minorities and women holding positions of authority, responsibility and power equals the number of similarly equipped white men will be the day equality is achieved.
No more "pathbreakers have to be 10x better" and such.
By that standard, she has taken several steps in that direction.
@eastofwest: I don't see anything wrong with it. I find Jezebel excessively earnest and devoid of humor. The majority of Jezebel is super PC. #joannelipman
Well, it's certainly going to come off that way when many of the writers, especially the recent guest writers, think an incoherent, one-sided rant is an argument. Or they have a leaden style with completely predictable ideas.
And the arbitrary way in which they go after certain commenters while ignoring the obnoxious and dumb is migraine-producing. #joannelipman
It must be said (and will, in fact, be said, and that by ME!) that when a high-profile woman fails in devastatingly public fashion, it's almost the default that she will write an interminably self-serving piece in which she blames either sexists or other women.
Judith Regan, Arianna Huffington, you can pick your poisoned pen. And none of them ever seem to blame the fact that, you know, they sort of sucked at their jobs, which was never clearer than in Lipman's case.
I love finance magazines; I read them the way other people watch lifestyle porn real-estate shows. I'm an addict. I literally squealed with joy when I saw the word "Swindler" on last month's VF (not enough how-to's, in case you're reading, Graydon). But even I must say (see, I said I would say things, and here I am, saying them) that Portfolio sucked donkey dick. On Sunday. #joannelipman
It must be said (and will, in fact, be said, and that by ME!) that when a high-profile woman fails in devastatingly public fashion, it's almost the default that she will write an interminably self-serving piece in which she blames either sexists or other women.
Judith Regan, Arianna Huffington, you can pick your poisoned pen. And none of them ever seem to blame the fact that, you know, they sort of sucked at their jobs, which was never clearer than in Lipman's case.
I love finance magazines; I read them the way other people watch lifestyle porn real-estate shows. I'm an addict. I literally squealed with joy when I saw the word "Swindler" on last month's VF (not enough how-to's, in case you're reading, Graydon). But even I must say (see, I said I would say things, and here I am, saying them) that Portfolio sucked donkey dick. On Sunday. #joannelipman
Lipman's editorial career was all about reflexively shouting at staffers to express control when she had none. For her, feminism is a topic to wield to regain that sense of control. The difficulty inherent in her mostly-male competition's rebuttal production will allow Lipman to get that unassailable feeling back. Problem: misogyny was as much about control as it was about manliness. Using a feminist argument to take the opportunity to infantilize the wond'ring masses and feel powerful in a topic is the return-to-form equivalent of Ron Jeremy deciding to whip it out and give it another go all these years later. It's still just a big fat sausage party, Joanne, and there isn't any substance to the writing.
I find modern feminism to be a crock of shit anyway. I work in high end art which is supposed to be the deep asshole of nepotism, racism, and sexism. I've found in this recession everyone is being cut regardless of who they fucked or who what family they belong to. It's an equal opportunity axing across the board. I'm a chick that dresses like a chick, but I don't think that women should use their vaginas as some massive entitlement to be given a job or keep. Are women getting pissed that men are keeping their jobs? Yeah. Are men getting pissed that women are keeping their jobs? Yeah. Are we all a little pissed off when we lose a job? SHIT YEAH. Today's feminist movement I find totally frivolous. Have you heard some of those ladies bitch about? Name changing when they get married! Wearing heels vs flats! Some of them talk about wage gaps and all that jazz but sometimes people should just say something to their human resources people instead of bitch about it. Patriarchal might be the way our society started but it sure as hell not the way it is now. People are people. Some have different parts and do different things with them. Big deal. I know the Jezebel chicks are gonna get all up in this with their earnestness and citing nonexistent sources so this is one big UGH from me.
@fatmonalisa: Leaving aside all the other bullshit, your assertion that wronged employees need to "say something to their human resources people" is really incredibly stupid. It's like "let them eat cake", but actually attributable to somebody. You sound like the managers at the Wal-Mart I used to work at, who stressed that unions as a concept were completely outdated because you could just walk up to your superiors if you had grievances! They are there for you! It's so simple!
Meanwhile my coworker was back on the job a few days after throat surgery, unable to carry her own weight and perpetually hunched over a shopping cart, because the people who were supposed to be there for her didn't think she deserved sick leave.
Maybe when I finally make it to the world of high end art I too can be a privileged sack of shit.
Also please don't ever use the statement "People are people" again. It makes you look absolutely retarded.
Some of them talk about wage gaps and all that jazz but sometimes people should just say something to their human resources people instead of bitch about it.
Maybe they've tried, or they realize it's futile? Sometimes bitching and consciousness raising and making a public issue out of things en masse is the only way to bring about change.
Compared to equal pay, the name issue is small, but perhaps you don't remember the days when society pages had captions with "Mrs. Lambert Crodnick," "Mrs. Victor Jones," and "Mrs. Gary Meadows."
And personally, I think that if you're wearing shoes so high that in an emergency you have to take them off to run and save your life you're an effing idiot, but that's just me. #joannelipman
@fatmonalisa: Now we know the source of La Gioconda's smile: she was trolling. That is, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that's the case. Because otherwise you're just someone who says stupid things sincerely. #joannelipman
@Better to Eat You With: Privileged? Holy shit. Privilege has nothing to do with it. I worked my way up and the only thing that would have probably slowed my efforts would have been having kids.
We need to start looking at this instead of woman or man and move it on to "person." Neither gender is superior at all. #joannelipman
Now Lipman is a once-serious journalist with a long-ago serious mien, a current writer of self-indulgent, banshee-shrieking rubbish, and long legs. #joannelipman
@GlasgowRose: I'm reminded of a hilarious piece in The New Yorker many years ago about Naomi Wolf. It noted that although the thesis of 'The Beauty Trap" was the tyranny of a woman's being required to be attractive, the book still featured a very flattering photo of Ms. Wolf on its cover.
Is Lipman having her feminist cheesecake and eating it, too?
@Foster Kamer: Poodle/Heart. Yes. The Old Name wasn't fitting into the left column in the most recent redesign, so this New One is shorter. I updated the Avatar, to match. I have no idea why the Avatar keeps bouncing between Old and New.
Also, per a comment from a previous thread, I have embraced Capitalization, thinking perhaps that was a request to Tidy Up in case Visitors are coming, despite my fondness for the Oldschool WebCred of LowerCase. #joannelipman
10/27/09
While she was enjoying her "post-feminist" privileges and denigrating the radical actions, litigation and legislative campaigns that made her success possible, others of us continued the fight against all the gender inequities Ms. Lipman seems to have just discovered — unequal pay, the glass ceiling, job ghettos, media sexism (not to mention rape and violence against women) — none of which is very funny. Yet she trots out the old canard that women need a sense of humor before they can demand their rights.
[www.nytimes.com] #joannelipman
10/26/09
The others (aka, "size 8 and over," "not white"): fat, lazy, eat at McDonald's. #joannelipman
10/27/09
But I agree with your points. Although I'm an XX female I did not feel included and was tempted to quote Tonto.
There was a distinct whiff of upper-middle-class-white-woman entitlement to it.
10/25/09
[jonswift.blogspot.com]
"But Dowd was not just crying for herself. She was crying for all of the pundits and journalists and bloggers who worry that another Clinton Administration will turn us into Clinton-hating hacks. She was crying for all of us who remember how the peace and prosperity of the Clinton era led directly into the war and economic downturn of the Bush years, something we don't want to happen again. She feels our pain."
For a good laugh:
[jonswift.blogspot.com]
This is not the first time Ms. Shaidle, has taken on the menace of the poor. "The so-called poor have cars and cable tv and free medical," she wrote last year. "They live in America in the 21st century, where school is free and libraries are free and a bus ticket to a better town costs less than a bag of crack. If they're 'poor' it's because they were too lazy and stupid to a) finish high school and/or b) keep their pants on. Jesus had something to say about folks who didn't properly manage their money or other people's." Although I am not familiar with Jesus' admonitions against poor accounting practices, she has a point. Instead of waging class war against the wealthy who worked hard for their money, we should be attacking the poor. After a lot of unsuspecting investors were lured by the poor into putting their hard-earned money into credit defaults swaps and tricked into giving deadbeats subprime mortgages, which ruined our entire economy, haven't poor people done enough harm to this country? #joannelipman
10/25/09
Relative free riders like Lippman kept their mouths shut, understanding that it wasn't in their interest to rock the boat. Then when the boat capsizes, they're a martyr to the cause.
The 9/11 point isn't completely nuts. I'm saying I agree, but I remember reading an interview with Susan Faludi in which she attributed the success of "Backlash" in part to its having been published before or after the Gulf War (I can't remember when the book came out.) The Gulf War was "Boy's Time," I think she called it; peacetime was "Girls' Time."
Lippman seems to be saying that in national security emergencies such as 9/11 the rights of women [and others, I might add] are subsumed by the immediate crisis -- We'll get back to you girls/minorities later.
10/27/09
Nytpicker's right, she's ignorant of basic facts.
10/25/09
10/25/09
It's a pity, cause she does have some good points towards the end (like the "women don't ask" section, which I firmly believe in)....but it's lost in her sorry rhetoric and bizarre logical fallacies. #joannelipman
10/25/09
I've never really heard anyone go to bat for Ferraro as a substantial, game-changing figure, due to her extremely modest political talents I suppose...but I'm willing to believe that the time is ripe for a little contrarianism on this topic.
10/27/09
10/25/09
Can we spell out the joke, here? The one way Lipman's completely wrong about men and women meeting in the middle is the example she set: that they both possess the capability to be equally as disgustingly vapid when it comes to the captain punching holes in their sinking ship. Both men and women, hand in hand, can disregard integrity for grossly incompetent, morale-shuttering selfishness!
I suppose I might be exceedingly dense, but I'm not sure what you're spelling here. I offer this one example because I badly want to understand you. #joannelipman
10/25/09
10/25/09
10/25/09
10/25/09
I read this post at 5 in the morning after pulling an all-nighter. I thought maybe my fog of comprehension was caused by fatigue. #joannelipman
10/25/09
The ironic peak of Joanne Lipman kvetching about equality between the sexes is: she's an awesome example of how far the women's equality movement has actually come. In 2009, both Graydon Carter and Joanne Lipman, man and woman, can completely fuck their respective media properties over through out-and-out selfishness and naivity.
10/25/09
No more "pathbreakers have to be 10x better" and such.
By that standard, she has taken several steps in that direction.
10/25/09
10/25/09
10/25/09
10/25/09
10/25/09
Well, it's certainly going to come off that way when many of the writers, especially the recent guest writers, think an incoherent, one-sided rant is an argument. Or they have a leaden style with completely predictable ideas.
And the arbitrary way in which they go after certain commenters while ignoring the obnoxious and dumb is migraine-producing. #joannelipman
10/25/09
"migraine-inducing."
Sorry. #joannelipman
10/27/09
10/25/09
Judith Regan, Arianna Huffington, you can pick your poisoned pen. And none of them ever seem to blame the fact that, you know, they sort of sucked at their jobs, which was never clearer than in Lipman's case.
I love finance magazines; I read them the way other people watch lifestyle porn real-estate shows. I'm an addict. I literally squealed with joy when I saw the word "Swindler" on last month's VF (not enough how-to's, in case you're reading, Graydon). But even I must say (see, I said I would say things, and here I am, saying them) that Portfolio sucked donkey dick. On Sunday. #joannelipman
10/25/09
Judith Regan, Arianna Huffington, you can pick your poisoned pen. And none of them ever seem to blame the fact that, you know, they sort of sucked at their jobs, which was never clearer than in Lipman's case.
I love finance magazines; I read them the way other people watch lifestyle porn real-estate shows. I'm an addict. I literally squealed with joy when I saw the word "Swindler" on last month's VF (not enough how-to's, in case you're reading, Graydon). But even I must say (see, I said I would say things, and here I am, saying them) that Portfolio sucked donkey dick. On Sunday. #joannelipman
10/25/09
10/25/09
10/25/09
10/25/09
10/25/09
Meanwhile my coworker was back on the job a few days after throat surgery, unable to carry her own weight and perpetually hunched over a shopping cart, because the people who were supposed to be there for her didn't think she deserved sick leave.
Maybe when I finally make it to the world of high end art I too can be a privileged sack of shit.
Also please don't ever use the statement "People are people" again. It makes you look absolutely retarded.
10/25/09
Some of them talk about wage gaps and all that jazz but sometimes people should just say something to their human resources people instead of bitch about it.
Maybe they've tried, or they realize it's futile? Sometimes bitching and consciousness raising and making a public issue out of things en masse is the only way to bring about change.
Compared to equal pay, the name issue is small, but perhaps you don't remember the days when society pages had captions with "Mrs. Lambert Crodnick," "Mrs. Victor Jones," and "Mrs. Gary Meadows."
And personally, I think that if you're wearing shoes so high that in an emergency you have to take them off to run and save your life you're an effing idiot, but that's just me. #joannelipman
10/25/09
10/25/09
10/25/09
We need to start looking at this instead of woman or man and move it on to "person." Neither gender is superior at all. #joannelipman
10/24/09
10/24/09
10/25/09
Is Lipman having her feminist cheesecake and eating it, too?
10/25/09
10/24/09
10/24/09
10/24/09
Also, per a comment from a previous thread, I have embraced Capitalization, thinking perhaps that was a request to Tidy Up in case Visitors are coming, despite my fondness for the Oldschool WebCred of LowerCase. #joannelipman
10/24/09
10/24/09