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New York, 11:24 AM
Sun Dec 6
14 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of kimsama kimsama
    06/16/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    Wouldn't it be better and not torturey to just use alcohol and polygraphs on these guys? You know, a round or ten of whiskey, then hook 'em up, get 'em talking, and separate the truths from the lies. Drunks are pretty piss poor liars anyway.


    I know it works on me (sans polygraph, even).

     Reply
    kimsama was starred kimsama was unstarred
    Image of Lizawithazee Lizawithazee
    06/16/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    Anyone who believes that accurate information is gathered via torture or the threat of torture has never, ever interacted with humans. Forget that it's wrong, for a moment-- it doesn't work. Why is this still up for debate?
     Reply
    Lizawithazee was starred Lizawithazee was unstarred
    Image of kookla kookla
    06/16/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    I, for one, believe it.


    Judging from the photo, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed seems to be a reputable and honest man.

     Reply
    kookla was starred kookla was unstarred
    Image of maevemealone maevemealone
    06/16/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    I feel like The New Yorker wrote about this just over a year ago. Senior intelligence officers, those opposed to the interrogation techniques being put to use, were fairly well aware that the information was no good. He couldn't stop talking, he was telling story after story because when he stopped talking, they'd torture him more. What nobody seemed to figure out is that once KSM was caught, he no longer had the inside scoop on any ongoing plans. So maybe initially you could get some info out of him, but just like a new car, he loses value the second you take him off the lot. Torturing him for years got you, at best, information that was now several years old.
     Reply
    maevemealone was starred maevemealone was unstarred
    Image of ChillbearLatrigue ChillbearLatrigue
    06/16/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    Yes. He lied. This is earth shattering news? Any tough interrogation starts with lies. You can't rely solely on the information provided by one subject. If you act on what KSM... (thanks for the easy abbreviation. I'm getting tired of looking up the spelling of "Ahmadinejad"). If you rely on what KSM tells you without corroborating information regardless of whether that information was obtained by torture or by other techniques, you are sending your people on a fool's errand.


    Every informant, source or subject has some motivation to give you information. In the case of torture, the motivation is to end the unpleasant experience. If it is extra food or cigarettes, the motivation is the reward. It's not the type of motivation that makes the subject give bad info. It's the fact that he thinks he can satisfy the motivation by outsmarting the interrogator instead of telling the truth.


    Torture is wrong and it is not something that we should be doing to human beings. However, the idea that KSM would hold up indefinitely to water-boarding while creating a bunch of clever lies is nonsense.


    An example of how the lack of corroborating evidence is detrimental is the situation where a newspaper has to retract a story because it was based on one anonymous source that couldn't be corroborated.


    I don't think that this waste of flesh should have been tortured, but his testimony that he lied is meaningless. We would expect the lies.

     Reply
    ChillbearLatrigue was starred ChillbearLatrigue was unstarred
    Image of Mediahohoho Mediahohoho
    06/16/09

    @ChillbearLatrigue: The point is that we spent millions of dollars and invaluable man hours chasing down his lies. The scandal is that he was tortured with the goal of creating a link between 9/11 and al Qaeda when it was already known none existed.


    Also, we're supposed to be smarter than this.

     Reply
    Mediahohoho was starred Mediahohoho was unstarred
    Image of ChillbearLatrigue ChillbearLatrigue
    06/16/09

    @Mediahohoho: Did you mean 9/11 and Iraq? The expense argument is separate from the torture issue because we would have spent those same resources chasing down lies if they were obtained by more traditional means. However, if we were just asking him questions like: "When was the last time Saddam and UBL played poker together" then you're right. That is some bullshit.
     Reply
    ChillbearLatrigue was starred ChillbearLatrigue was unstarred
    Image of BadUncle BadUncle
    06/16/09

    @ChillbearLatrigue: Dude, every professional interrogator from the US military to Shin Bet will tell you that torture provides - at best - unreliable information. You can't possibly be trying to justify this any more. I mean, come on. Your team's down. Take the hit and move on.
     Reply
    BadUncle was starred BadUncle was unstarred
    Image of Mediahohoho Mediahohoho
    06/16/09

    @ChillbearLatrigue: Yes, I meant 9/11 and Iraq; it's clear as time goes on that much of the torture carried out at the height of the "enhanced interrogation" period was intended to illicit some kind of connection between those two things.


    But I'll also stick to the budget argument. I mean, we all know a big bureaucracy like the CIA is going to make every effort to spent its budget no matter what, but to use a firearms metaphor, there are ways of actually aiming a weapon that actually increase its effectiveness versus just spraying random fire.

     Reply
    Mediahohoho was starred Mediahohoho was unstarred
    Image of Private Hangnail Private Hangnail
    06/15/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    I lie when mildly inconvenienced. I simply cannot imagine the bullshit I would fabricate while being waterboarded.
     Reply
    Private Hangnail was starred Private Hangnail was unstarred
    Image of Mediahohoho Mediahohoho
    06/15/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    Yeah, no shit.


    [www.washingtonpost.com]

     Reply
    Mediahohoho was starred Mediahohoho was unstarred
    Image of Xylo Xylo
    06/16/09

    @Mediahohoho: Wow. [i]" ...within weeks of his capture, U.S. officials had gained evidence that made clear they had misjudged Abu Zubaida. President George W. Bush had publicly described him as "al-Qaeda's chief of operations," and other top officials called him a "trusted associate" of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and a major figure in the planning of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. None of that was accurate, the new evidence showed.


    Abu Zubaida was not even an official member of al-Qaeda, according to a portrait of the man that emerges from court documents and interviews with current and former intelligence, law enforcement and military sources. Rather, he was a "fixer" for radical Muslim ideologues, and he ended up working directly with al-Qaeda only after Sept. 11 -- and that was because the United States stood ready to invade Afghanistan. "[/i]

    Still, Cheney continues to lie about all the plots they foiled.

     Reply
    Xylo was starred Xylo was unstarred
    Image of bayktdin bayktdin
    06/15/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    KSM is the Citizen Ruth of the torture debate.
     Reply
    bayktdin was starred bayktdin was unstarred
    Image of skahammer skahammer
    06/16/09

    @bayktdin: Wow. Nicely done.
     Reply
    skahammer was starred skahammer was unstarred
    Image of Dudezebel Dudezebel
    06/15/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    What rubbish. Seriously, ask Dick Cheney, the only logical explanation is that KSM told the truth while be tortured and only lied after the fact, when not being tortured to try and maintain his street cred. And just because he is lying now, to suit his own goals, in no way hurts the credibility of the previous truths we were able to torture out of him, when telling the enhanced interrogators what they wanted to hear, would end the torture.
     Reply
    Dudezebel was starred Dudezebel was unstarred
    Image of Pope John Peeps II Pope John Peeps II
    06/16/09

    @Dudezebel: I'm going to assume this is sarcastic? Is it?
     Reply
    Pope John Peeps II was starred Pope John Peeps II was unstarred
    Image of SaraRueful SaraRueful
    06/16/09

    @Dudezebel: Right, 'cause if he had ben lying, we wouldn't have been able to find Bin Laden!


    Oh, wait ...

     Reply
    SaraRueful was starred SaraRueful was unstarred
    Image of jacobestes jacobestes
    06/15/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    Pictured: John Belushi just woken by Lorne Michaels.
     Reply
    jacobestes was starred jacobestes was unstarred
    Image of Xylo Xylo
    06/16/09

    @jacobestes: Too soon.
     Reply
    Xylo was starred Xylo was unstarred
    Image of ninety_nine ninety_nine
    06/14/09

    In reply to Kiss The Ring: Bank Of America Takes Mercy On Their Pitiful, Ant-Like, Broke Customers
    It should be generally noted that banks processing debits and credits in a specific order. Meaning that they take money OUT of your account FIRST, then put money in. Regulatory changes over the past couple years regarding settlement have evolved, but I don't see that stuff regularly, so I don't know what is required (some banks are 'nicer' than others). Generally, think of all daily transactions as happening after the bank closes (say, 6PM). All withdrawals (debits) -- checks, ATMs, etc., occur in order they arrive, followed by credits -- deposits, refunds, transfers -- then flow in. Generally, if you end up with a positive balance after the credits are processed, you will be okay. But if a deposited check is not fully available, you might be overdrawn (which is when your current balance and available balance are unequal). Mileage may vary, due to the type of relationship you have, the bank, etc.


    This, strictly speaking, isn't how it happens, allowing for things like deposit availability (when a check clears), but understand that if you deposit cash at 4PM Monday that covers a series of transactions from the weekend that would make you overdrawn does not guarantee you won't get hit with a bundle of overdraft fees. Rationally speaking, it should (after all, if the bank is zeroing out all your daily transactions at once, no money has been lost if you end up with a positive balance), but, you know, banks. If you imagine that an overdrawn amount as a bell that rings every time you are mathematically in the red, you can see how the bell rings five times before you cash deposit hits, and voila, 5 overdraft fees, even though by 7PM Monday your account is adequately funded.


    Until federal bank regs are overhauled so that settlement occurs immediately (something that is, generally speaking, technically viable), you can fume at banks all you want, but you can't really stop them, so keep the above in mind, since it mirrors the way accounts were processed before ATMs (this is the 'batch processing' that Gladwell was referring to in his latest opus of idiocy) and various settlement advances happened. It should generally protect you from fee problems, but also will constrain your spending. Just because online banking looks immediate and feels like it is the last word, it may well not be the case.


    Generally, avoid combo ATM/Debit cards, and use a monthly intermediary like AMEX to fund card purchasing, or online payments (like PayPal), unless you check on or manage your frequently. AMEX requires more discipline, but the liability issues about a Debit card are not worth the headache, and AMEX has excellent fraud management. When you use AMEX, you are basically withholding final settlement of your liability, which is not a bad personal policy, provided you manage your cash. It will be the only leverage you get, so take what you can, since everyone else is. Your employer makes you wait two weeks for pay, the government holds your estimated takes up to a year before issuing the refund you are due, so why shouldn't you delay final settlement as long as possible?

     Reply
    ninety_nine was starred ninety_nine was unstarred
    Image of Foster Kamer Foster Kamer
    06/14/09

    @ninety_nine: Don't I owe you a beer or something?
     Reply
    Foster Kamer was starred Foster Kamer was unstarred
    Image of Mediahohoho Mediahohoho
    06/13/09

    In reply to Kiss The Ring: Bank Of America Takes Mercy On Their Pitiful, Ant-Like, Broke Customers
    And I promise you these fucks are protected by every relevant congress member and senator of both parties. The ownership class of America see us all as being beneath dirt and worthy only of stealing from. Usury protection? Don't ask for help from Joe Biden or Chris Dodd. They're laughing their asses off about this.
     Reply
    Mediahohoho was starred Mediahohoho was unstarred
    Image of Mediahohoho Mediahohoho
    06/13/09

    In reply to Kiss The Ring: Bank Of America Takes Mercy On Their Pitiful, Ant-Like, Broke Customers
    Here's a suggestion for changing the banking system permanently and making them heel to consumers: stop paying your credit card balances. Sure, if just one of us does it, they'll be screwed. If everyone does it, the banks will be fucked. As they should be. Fuck. Them.
     Reply
    Mediahohoho was starred Mediahohoho was unstarred
    Image of JuliaJolie JuliaJolie
    06/13/09

    In reply to Kiss The Ring: Bank Of America Takes Mercy On Their Pitiful, Ant-Like, Broke Customers
    Here's what happened to me:

    - Checked my Online Banking at 2am, morning of June 9th

    - Went in to deposit $140 cash as a $575 cheque was going to be pending any day now, which would have left me $60 overdrawn without the $140

    - Put in cash, avail immediately, went back home, Online Banking statement AND branch employee says it went through

    - June 10: OB statement says $575 cheque went through on 8th (???)

    - 0.47 transaction (charge for international cancer donation, why??)

    - MBTA transaction had been pulled out on 28th June and re-posted on June 8th

    - 7 transactions rearranged from highest to lowest including cheque and processed BEFORE $140 cash went in, resulting in 6 overdraft fees


    So they fudged the date on my cheque, pulled out and put back in a transaction, and rearranged the transactions from highest to lowest to maximise their overdrafts.


    And then they tell me to use Online Banking to keep track of my fucking account!


    FUCK BofA. No sane human being can keep up with these constant mindfucks. Instead of having almost $80 in my account I am now $98 overdrawn.

     Reply
    JuliaJolie was starred JuliaJolie was unstarred
    Image of AndIAmTellingYou AndIAmTellingYou
    06/15/09

    @JuliaJolie: BofA does this all the time with me, too. I check my balance before purchases or withdrawals, yet they constantly change the dates on transactions, and then by payday I'm been down nearly $100 in overdraft fees.


    Their shady "accounting" has me looking for another bank.

     Reply
    AndIAmTellingYou was starred AndIAmTellingYou was unstarred
    Image of Tart of Darkness Tart of Darkness
    06/13/09

    In reply to Kiss The Ring: Bank Of America Takes Mercy On Their Pitiful, Ant-Like, Broke Customers
    I had an overdraft credit line with BofA for almost 15 years. It was $4600. Back years ago I did occasionally make the mistake of overdrawing my account and they gleefully charged me $3 for every $50 they put into my checking account ($50 was the minimum). Plus I would, of course, pay interest on whatever charges they made.


    But lately I have been careful, careful, careful and have been transferring money when I need to, before I need to and keep a balance in my savings and checking accounts.


    So they closed my overdraft line of credit. For "inactivity".


    I used to be able to use my ATM card like a credit card and not have to deal with putting stuff on a credit card, but now it is no longer a credit card at all. So I have no cushion whatsoever.


    To make this feel even more disempowering, this was the last credit that I had in my name only.


    And the saddest thing? We stay with BofA because we have not found another bank that isn't worse.


    You can take advantage of their low balance emails service and I highly recommend it. It is free.

     Reply
    Tart of Darkness was starred Tart of Darkness was unstarred
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