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New York, 5:49 AM
Fri Nov 27
11 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of kimsama kimsama
    06/16/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    Wouldn't it be better and not torturey to just use alcohol and polygraphs on these guys? You know, a round or ten of whiskey, then hook 'em up, get 'em talking, and separate the truths from the lies. Drunks are pretty piss poor liars anyway.


    I know it works on me (sans polygraph, even).

     Reply
    kimsama was starred kimsama was unstarred
    Image of Lizawithazee Lizawithazee
    06/16/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    Anyone who believes that accurate information is gathered via torture or the threat of torture has never, ever interacted with humans. Forget that it's wrong, for a moment-- it doesn't work. Why is this still up for debate?
     Reply
    Lizawithazee was starred Lizawithazee was unstarred
    Image of kookla kookla
    06/16/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    I, for one, believe it.


    Judging from the photo, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed seems to be a reputable and honest man.

     Reply
    kookla was starred kookla was unstarred
    Image of maevemealone maevemealone
    06/16/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    I feel like The New Yorker wrote about this just over a year ago. Senior intelligence officers, those opposed to the interrogation techniques being put to use, were fairly well aware that the information was no good. He couldn't stop talking, he was telling story after story because when he stopped talking, they'd torture him more. What nobody seemed to figure out is that once KSM was caught, he no longer had the inside scoop on any ongoing plans. So maybe initially you could get some info out of him, but just like a new car, he loses value the second you take him off the lot. Torturing him for years got you, at best, information that was now several years old.
     Reply
    maevemealone was starred maevemealone was unstarred
    Image of ChillbearLatrigue ChillbearLatrigue
    06/16/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    Yes. He lied. This is earth shattering news? Any tough interrogation starts with lies. You can't rely solely on the information provided by one subject. If you act on what KSM... (thanks for the easy abbreviation. I'm getting tired of looking up the spelling of "Ahmadinejad"). If you rely on what KSM tells you without corroborating information regardless of whether that information was obtained by torture or by other techniques, you are sending your people on a fool's errand.


    Every informant, source or subject has some motivation to give you information. In the case of torture, the motivation is to end the unpleasant experience. If it is extra food or cigarettes, the motivation is the reward. It's not the type of motivation that makes the subject give bad info. It's the fact that he thinks he can satisfy the motivation by outsmarting the interrogator instead of telling the truth.


    Torture is wrong and it is not something that we should be doing to human beings. However, the idea that KSM would hold up indefinitely to water-boarding while creating a bunch of clever lies is nonsense.


    An example of how the lack of corroborating evidence is detrimental is the situation where a newspaper has to retract a story because it was based on one anonymous source that couldn't be corroborated.


    I don't think that this waste of flesh should have been tortured, but his testimony that he lied is meaningless. We would expect the lies.

     Reply
    ChillbearLatrigue was starred ChillbearLatrigue was unstarred
    Image of Mediahohoho Mediahohoho
    06/16/09

    @ChillbearLatrigue: The point is that we spent millions of dollars and invaluable man hours chasing down his lies. The scandal is that he was tortured with the goal of creating a link between 9/11 and al Qaeda when it was already known none existed.


    Also, we're supposed to be smarter than this.

     Reply
    Mediahohoho was starred Mediahohoho was unstarred
    Image of ChillbearLatrigue ChillbearLatrigue
    06/16/09

    @Mediahohoho: Did you mean 9/11 and Iraq? The expense argument is separate from the torture issue because we would have spent those same resources chasing down lies if they were obtained by more traditional means. However, if we were just asking him questions like: "When was the last time Saddam and UBL played poker together" then you're right. That is some bullshit.
     Reply
    ChillbearLatrigue was starred ChillbearLatrigue was unstarred
    Image of BadUncle BadUncle
    06/16/09

    @ChillbearLatrigue: Dude, every professional interrogator from the US military to Shin Bet will tell you that torture provides - at best - unreliable information. You can't possibly be trying to justify this any more. I mean, come on. Your team's down. Take the hit and move on.
     Reply
    BadUncle was starred BadUncle was unstarred
    Image of Mediahohoho Mediahohoho
    06/16/09

    @ChillbearLatrigue: Yes, I meant 9/11 and Iraq; it's clear as time goes on that much of the torture carried out at the height of the "enhanced interrogation" period was intended to illicit some kind of connection between those two things.


    But I'll also stick to the budget argument. I mean, we all know a big bureaucracy like the CIA is going to make every effort to spent its budget no matter what, but to use a firearms metaphor, there are ways of actually aiming a weapon that actually increase its effectiveness versus just spraying random fire.

     Reply
    Mediahohoho was starred Mediahohoho was unstarred
    Image of Private Hangnail Private Hangnail
    06/15/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    I lie when mildly inconvenienced. I simply cannot imagine the bullshit I would fabricate while being waterboarded.
     Reply
    Private Hangnail was starred Private Hangnail was unstarred
    Image of Mediahohoho Mediahohoho
    06/15/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    Yeah, no shit.


    [www.washingtonpost.com]

     Reply
    Mediahohoho was starred Mediahohoho was unstarred
    Image of Xylo Xylo
    06/16/09

    @Mediahohoho: Wow. [i]" ...within weeks of his capture, U.S. officials had gained evidence that made clear they had misjudged Abu Zubaida. President George W. Bush had publicly described him as "al-Qaeda's chief of operations," and other top officials called him a "trusted associate" of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and a major figure in the planning of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. None of that was accurate, the new evidence showed.


    Abu Zubaida was not even an official member of al-Qaeda, according to a portrait of the man that emerges from court documents and interviews with current and former intelligence, law enforcement and military sources. Rather, he was a "fixer" for radical Muslim ideologues, and he ended up working directly with al-Qaeda only after Sept. 11 -- and that was because the United States stood ready to invade Afghanistan. "[/i]

    Still, Cheney continues to lie about all the plots they foiled.

     Reply
    Xylo was starred Xylo was unstarred
    Image of bayktdin bayktdin
    06/15/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    KSM is the Citizen Ruth of the torture debate.
     Reply
    bayktdin was starred bayktdin was unstarred
    Image of skahammer skahammer
    06/16/09

    @bayktdin: Wow. Nicely done.
     Reply
    skahammer was starred skahammer was unstarred
    Image of Dudezebel Dudezebel
    06/15/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    What rubbish. Seriously, ask Dick Cheney, the only logical explanation is that KSM told the truth while be tortured and only lied after the fact, when not being tortured to try and maintain his street cred. And just because he is lying now, to suit his own goals, in no way hurts the credibility of the previous truths we were able to torture out of him, when telling the enhanced interrogators what they wanted to hear, would end the torture.
     Reply
    Dudezebel was starred Dudezebel was unstarred
    Image of Pope John Peeps II Pope John Peeps II
    06/16/09

    @Dudezebel: I'm going to assume this is sarcastic? Is it?
     Reply
    Pope John Peeps II was starred Pope John Peeps II was unstarred
    Image of SaraRueful SaraRueful
    06/16/09

    @Dudezebel: Right, 'cause if he had ben lying, we wouldn't have been able to find Bin Laden!


    Oh, wait ...

     Reply
    SaraRueful was starred SaraRueful was unstarred
    Image of jacobestes jacobestes
    06/15/09

    In reply to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed Says He Gave False Information to End Torture
    Pictured: John Belushi just woken by Lorne Michaels.
     Reply
    jacobestes was starred jacobestes was unstarred
    Image of Xylo Xylo
    06/16/09

    @jacobestes: Too soon.
     Reply
    Xylo was starred Xylo was unstarred
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