I think it's less about his own abilities as a leader and more about the fact that he surrounded himself with intelligent and manipulative individuals. They were evil, of course...but their skill isn't something that can really be denied.
@apedigreeofhoney: Said intelligent individuals and manipulative accolytes (those who hadn't auf-ed themselves by the time the Allies closed in on them, anyway) were also all morphine addicts. No wonder they collectively ran that country into a ditch. Rock & roll! Just imagine a country whose leadership is high. Like, ALL THE TIME.
Actually, when I think evil man. I think Ronald Reagan, because really, Day Light Savings Time. What? Why? Why must I alter my sleep schedule twice a year? I know, I know...it had something to do with agriculture or some such, but you know it's really just cheating God, science, the earth's axis and all that. It's like NASA thought this up.
The Hitler bit reminds me of advise I would give when I was MC'ing wedding receptions. Best men would nervously ask me if I had any tips for public speaking and I'd always say "never mention death and never mention divorce. I never once saw someone spin either topic well in a wedding speech. The same thing goes for Hitler, you can't make it funny and no one's interested in your nuanced opinion of what this guys positive aspects were.
It's Hitler people, how about we just don't fucking go there?
@SinisterBill of Star Command: On the positive side, famous newspaper guy once claimed you can never go wrong with nuns and midgets. Said, stories of nuns and midgets tell themselves.
There's a story from a public defender in Nazi Germany [muller-kluge.library.cornell.edu] that relates a story about defending someone who repeated a story of Hitler only having half a penis.
See, Hitler's childhood friends were playing this game where they took turns urinating into the mouth of a goat. When Hitler's turn came, one of his friends let go of the goat's mouth, and, well, you can imagine where it goes from there.
Please read the link. It may just be village scuttlebutt, but it's still a pretty good anecdote. There's also a great masturbation story involving Immanuel Kant.
@kentuckienne: Yep. And the presentation after 1945 was, the citizens had no idea where all the goods which were raining on them were coming from. They had no idea, about anything. It wasn't our fault, they said. It became the German motto.
It's fitting that Forbes is spreading a concept that has always hithertofore been spoken in cautious whispers by politically reactionary German retirees.
@MissNormaDesmond: The "architectural wonders" Hitler sponsored are complete dreck. A derivative neo-classicism lacking in soul, with a laughable obsession with symmetry.
@MissNormaDesmond: Also, the overarching idea that all Germany needed were "leaders" to resist Nazi rule is completely off-base. There were plenty of "leaders," but they were all slaughtered by the Gestapo or denounced by their neighbors for personal gain, who were motivated to do so because they wished to be "leaders" themselves. God, what a windbag this guy is. It's all just shallow and prodding corporate utopianist pap.
@i'm a bottle: Yeah, those are the same grandparents who claimed they didn't know what was going on in the camps seventy years ago. I totally agree with your other comment to MND. But can you explain to me why this sort of semi-apologist take on Hitler and the National Socialist movement seems to be part of the zeitgeist right now? It's like the 10th time in the last 3 months that I've heard or read something along these lines.
@i'm a bottle: Yes. Gandhi knew well, and said so, that Passive Resistance required first a civilized oppressor. A Motivational Speaker in Bombay, circa 1947? Could work. In Warsaw 1944? Not so much.
I remember reading a quote somewhere that gave me pause to think. The author said that if Hitler had died in 1936 or so, he would likely have been remembered as one of Germany's greatest leaders.
I don't quite know if I agree, but it brought me up short when I read it.
@AndPreciousLittleofThat: You are familiar with the Nazi boycott of Jewish businesses in 1933 and you know the Nuremberg Laws began in 1935, don't you?
The author who wrote that is not a very accurate or broad-thinking historian, now is he?
@AndPreciousLittleofThat: Yes, the SA hooligans running rampant on the streets, the Reichstag fire, the ensuing declaration of martial law, the destruction of the system of regional parliaments, the murder of the SA hooligans, the establishment of a ruthless and deadly secret police force controlled by a single party, the establishment of a deadly army controlled by a single party, the murder and imprisonment of Jews, Marxists, Social Democrats, the Nuremberg Laws.
@BookishLookish: Despite the sexism inherent in your question (why must the author be a he?), I'd likely agree with you; Germany was well on its path prior to 1936. The accuracy or broad-thinking-ness of the author is, as with every historical claim, open to debate and interpretation.
@therivercharley: Being named "Man of the Year" wasn't always laudatory; it meant that you were judged the most influential person of the year, not that that influence was necessarily good.
@BookishLookish: Most of history's Greatest Leaders were also Huge Assholes and often Racist Jerks as well.
Not to belittle Hitler's achievement as Perhaps the Biggest Asshole Ever, but the actions you cite -- the boycott and the restriction of rights -- wouldn't knock anyone off most historians' Greatest Leader list.
For example, Bismarck: great statesman, unified Germany, built it into one of Europe's most powerful powers, extended rights to the Jews -- but hated Catholics and fucked with their shit. You can't win with these Great Leaders!
Not that I disagree with you. Just food for thought.
@AndPreciousLittleofThat: "Sangeetha" is the feminine version of "Sangeeth." Like "Jane" is the feminine version of "John." Like that.
No hyphen in "sweetie pie," by the way. If you meant to annoy me with that last bit, you didn't. I'm from Jersey and we call everyone "honey," and not like you snotty Southern girls do it.
@therivercharley: To its credit, it was a very critical cover of Hitler playing on an organ with a bunch of half-naked bodies hanging from a wheel with the caption, "From the unholy organist, a hymn of hate."
@MissNormaDesmond: the article accompanying the appointment is actually fascinating. prophetic, even. in a "we're in for some real scary shit, here, folks" kind of way.
@BookishLookish: Now we're orbiting the logical equivalent of one of Saturn's outer moons.
But I do take some delight in your continued assumptions, which continue to be utterly wrong in hilarious fashion. I'm not Southern, I'm rarely snotty. (I'm not even a girl!)
@BookishLookish: i know its not my fight, but it's a little frustrating watching it, considering how oddly snarky you're getting. andpreciouslittle commented that you were being a bit sexist by assuming the author of an article he'd read was a "he". the article in question was not, in fact, the article being discussed above. therefore, your sangeeth/sangeetha, jane/john defense loses its muscle considering, you know, you people were talking about 2 different authors. you might want to bone up on understanding what's happening in front of your face before you get all shitty, and especially before you snap off a grammar correction. unless you're fond of the irony.
and, for the record, i'm a southerner. so go fuck yourself, you sanctimonious xenophobe.
@therivercharley: Hey, newbie! Sorry to break your heart, but snark is the whole point of Gawker. Or it used to before humor-free idiots like you started showing up/getting promoted. And the fact that you think I actually dislike Southerners proves you have been here exactly five minutes.
And I think xenophobia refers to people who live outside your country, not due south of your state. Heeyup! Fine Southern educational system shore does werk guuuuud! Keep it up, smart stuff!
@TheBusinessGuy: I hear he could also whip up a fantastic apple streudel. I mean really, how can you hate a guy who bakes streudel? You can't, you just can't.
@nathanst: He had his supporters. An old playwrite with dementia coming on thought his ascendancy bode well for the world, and he offered this solution to the parasite problem.
"I appeal to the chemists to discover a humane gas that will kill instantly and painlessly. Deadly by all means, but humane not cruel ..." G B Shaw; 7 Feb 1934 on "parasites" who do not produce what they consume. Ten years before Cyclon-B, which Eichmann described in the same term, "humane."
Maybe I don't get the sarcasm of the post, because it seems to imply that the author admires Hitler.
Instead, the author clearly identifies Hitler as "probably the most evil man the world has ever seen". He concludes that folks need to be grounded in their values (i.e. genocide is bad) and not be blinded by impressive sounding accomplishments (such as making the trains run on time). Simple stuff, and not too controversial.
@DrRocco: Which makes the tactic of using Hitler as an illustration sort of cheesy, the amount of time devoted to talking about what a great guy he was excessive, and the writing generally poor and cliche-ridden.
@MissNormaDesmond: Yes, but Dame Rebecca West taught us of a certain gentleman who lived his priniciples.
Sorry for the length; Dame Rebecca, you know, but it's apropos.
The prosecutions of British persons charged with treacherous relations with the enemy during the Second World War under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, ended with a nonpareil, a case quite unlike any that had come before or were to come afterwards. One of the most famous litigants of the last half-century was tried and convicted for broadcasting for the Germans in occupied Paris: a man of exceptional gifts, who had been brilliantly successful in business, had offered up his life in martyrdom to an idea connected with insurance finance. Roughly speaking, he thought it wrong of insurance companies to invest in commodities, and he crusaded against the practice with a fervour which would have been excessive had it been the prime cause of cancer, and which brought ruin on himself and his family. He had been attracted to German because he believed that the Nazi government was sound on this issue = and he was hardly conscious of any other - and on the outbreak of war he and his family were caught there and were engulfed in a series of horrible misfortunes, which finally swept them into occupied France. There he took service with the Germans from sheer need; and after the war the British authorities might have overlooked his offences, had not he been betrayed into provocative actions by his indignant feeling that too much importance was being ascribed to matters which, in his mind, were only marginal to the great problem of insurance finance. It is to be hoped that in the hereafter a world will be constructed for him where the Pearl and the Prudential, the Scottish Widows and the Eagle, all alike toe a celestial line and invest their surplus as he thinks decent.
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It's Hitler people, how about we just don't fucking go there?
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See, Hitler's childhood friends were playing this game where they took turns urinating into the mouth of a goat. When Hitler's turn came, one of his friends let go of the goat's mouth, and, well, you can imagine where it goes from there.
Please read the link. It may just be village scuttlebutt, but it's still a pretty good anecdote. There's also a great masturbation story involving Immanuel Kant.
10/06/09
Sung to the tune of 'Colonel Bogey March':
Hitler, has only got one ball,
Goering, has two but they're too small.
Himmler, has something similar,
But poor old Goebbels has no balls at all.
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[www.szyk.com]
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Adolph Schickelgruber, flop. No joke. (Not really love letters. That part was sarcastic)
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A cartoonish attack, but powerful...
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"Probably"? Glad to see the author cutting him some slack.
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It's fitting that Forbes is spreading a concept that has always hithertofore been spoken in cautious whispers by politically reactionary German retirees.
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I don't quite know if I agree, but it brought me up short when I read it.
10/05/09
The author who wrote that is not a very accurate or broad-thinking historian, now is he?
10/05/09
All of these events occured prior to 1936.
10/05/09
told you it was weird.
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And I ain't your honey, sweetie-pie.
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Not to belittle Hitler's achievement as Perhaps the Biggest Asshole Ever, but the actions you cite -- the boycott and the restriction of rights -- wouldn't knock anyone off most historians' Greatest Leader list.
For example, Bismarck: great statesman, unified Germany, built it into one of Europe's most powerful powers, extended rights to the Jews -- but hated Catholics and fucked with their shit. You can't win with these Great Leaders!
Not that I disagree with you. Just food for thought.
10/05/09
No hyphen in "sweetie pie," by the way. If you meant to annoy me with that last bit, you didn't. I'm from Jersey and we call everyone "honey," and not like you snotty Southern girls do it.
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But I do take some delight in your continued assumptions, which continue to be utterly wrong in hilarious fashion. I'm not Southern, I'm rarely snotty. (I'm not even a girl!)
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and, for the record, i'm a southerner. so go fuck yourself, you sanctimonious xenophobe.
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10/06/09
And I think xenophobia refers to people who live outside your country, not due south of your state. Heeyup! Fine Southern educational system shore does werk guuuuud! Keep it up, smart stuff!
10/14/09
Good thing I wasn't comparing them.
I recommend you read my entire post, and the post to which I replied...
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[www.youtube.com]
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"I appeal to the chemists to discover a humane gas that will kill instantly and painlessly. Deadly by all means, but humane not cruel ..." G B Shaw; 7 Feb 1934 on "parasites" who do not produce what they consume. Ten years before Cyclon-B, which Eichmann described in the same term, "humane."
[www.youtube.com]
10/05/09
Instead, the author clearly identifies Hitler as "probably the most evil man the world has ever seen". He concludes that folks need to be grounded in their values (i.e. genocide is bad) and not be blinded by impressive sounding accomplishments (such as making the trains run on time). Simple stuff, and not too controversial.
10/05/09
10/05/09
Sorry for the length; Dame Rebecca, you know, but it's apropos.
The prosecutions of British persons charged with treacherous relations with the enemy during the Second World War under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, ended with a nonpareil, a case quite unlike any that had come before or were to come afterwards. One of the most famous litigants of the last half-century was tried and convicted for broadcasting for the Germans in occupied Paris: a man of exceptional gifts, who had been brilliantly successful in business, had offered up his life in martyrdom to an idea connected with insurance finance. Roughly speaking, he thought it wrong of insurance companies to invest in commodities, and he crusaded against the practice with a fervour which would have been excessive had it been the prime cause of cancer, and which brought ruin on himself and his family. He had been attracted to German because he believed that the Nazi government was sound on this issue = and he was hardly conscious of any other - and on the outbreak of war he and his family were caught there and were engulfed in a series of horrible misfortunes, which finally swept them into occupied France. There he took service with the Germans from sheer need; and after the war the British authorities might have overlooked his offences, had not he been betrayed into provocative actions by his indignant feeling that too much importance was being ascribed to matters which, in his mind, were only marginal to the great problem of insurance finance. It is to be hoped that in the hereafter a world will be constructed for him where the Pearl and the Prudential, the Scottish Widows and the Eagle, all alike toe a celestial line and invest their surplus as he thinks decent.