Remember when Hackers were cool? When the whole thing was about showing technical skill and being subversive? Like when USAToday.comgot hacked back in '02 and put up fake headlines and stories posted. A personal favorite was one about the Pope admitting that the Bible was originally meant as a joke.
What ever happened to those types of hackers? Now there nothing more than minor annoyances. Ohhhhhhhh, you shut down twitter for a couple hours. LAME!
Funny (sorta -- not really) you should post this item since until about 5 minutes ago the latest I was seeing was the Economics post dated 9:54. Then they all fell in, up to the Martinez item. Anyone else? Are you guys still under siege?
@naugahydeinplainsight: Thank you. I, too, was stuck in that twilight zone for a good while. Figured teh internetz were getting slower, or Gawker was getting another DDoSage.
From where I sit (sister to two austic brothers), the problem is simply that we have a generation of American parents who grew up not understanding how serious mumps, measles, and ruebella are. They see kids with autism, and that scares them; mumps, measles, and ruebella are largely confined to the history books and therefore aren't meaningful to them.
After years of watching these folks methodically fight against vaccines, slowly eroding centuries of life-saving scientific achievement, I'm convinced that there's nothing we can say to get through to these people.
No, these fools won't change their minds until they start going to the funerals of people who die from exposure to these viruses, or until they know parents whose kids' health was damaged permanently because of exposure to viruses. Once enough of these funerals are covered by the media, and the media eviscerates the anti-vaccine movement, then the pendulum will swing the other way.
@magstheaxe: I agree, and it sucks, because innocent people shouldn't have to die because of other people's ignorance. I favor the government eliminating all religious and "philosophical" objections to compulsory vaccination and forcing universal vaccination.
@magstheaxe: I'd go a step further and say a segment of this generation of parents of very young kids, also have different parenting styles from, say, my parents. So whereas I might have been a "quirky" kid as a toddler or child, today, there's smaller room for outliers in terms of personality. Suddenly, you can't be a weird little kid anymore-- that kid just has to be somewhere on a continuum of mildly to severely disabled. I say this as a woman who has worked with severly autistic children in the past, odd (but normal) little kids, and as someone who has traveled to more 3rd world countries without the luxury of preventative inocculations than she ever cares to admit.
There are lots of perspectives on this thread. No one is more valid that another-- opinions are opinions. I would just like to suggest that like with other spectral diseases/disorders, we look at diagnosis methods among physicians to get a better understanding of just how wide this spectrum is.
@rubyruby: I agree with your post, and I was totally with you until you said that no one perspective is more valid than any other. I fundamentally disagree with that...the side with science on its side is right in this case, and the other side is wrong.
@magstheaxe: There are legit reasons for delaying vaccines and for waiting for reformulations. Calling every parent who doesn't vaccinate a "fool" is just as ignorant as saying vaccines are the main cause of autism. Some parents have to face tough decisions about vaccinations, and tough discussions with their doctors. Severe allergies and reactions do exist to vaccines, but the crazy people who think vaccines cause autism have clouded that fact and in turn have created a lot of hate aimed at anyone who doesn't vaccinate a child - even if they have a very legit medical reason and have medical evidence to back it up.
@Dancingfrog: If it's an actual medical contraindication that is supported by real science, that's an entirely different matter (and I have qualified my comments several times in this thread on that). If your kid can't medically get vaccinated, then you're not wrong to not vaccinate them (although I can't say if that's the case in your case). Actually, that makes you a potential victim of the people who are refusing to vaccinate for frivolous, emotional reasons that aren't scientifically supported, because it means that your kid will be unprotected if there is an outbreak of disease in your area caused by the anti-vaxer loons eroding herd immunity. You should be even more pissed off than I am. But to be clear, true medical contraindications are fairly rare. Most of the people who are not vaccinating are doing it for a reason that is not scientifically supportable, and that's the real problem.
I hope everyone here actually reads Carrey's piece.
You might find yourself considering that perhaps it's worthwhile to get the big pharma cock out of one's mouth before spouting off on something they haven't studied.
@GuyBitchy: Yeah, it's choc full of good points, like:
There's no evidence of the Lincoln Memorial if you look the other way and refuse to turn around.
What?!
Or:
These forward thinking vets also decided to remove thimerosal from animal vaccines in 1992, and yet this substance, which is 49% mercury, is still in human vaccines. Don't our children deserve as much consideration as our pets?
How many logical fallacies in this one statement alone? There's Appeal to Authority, Weasel Words, Bandwagon Fallacy, Poisoning the Well/Loaded Question, and Observational Selection. 5 fallacies? Wow. Oh, and let's remember that currently except for some influenza vaccines, vaccines that did have Thimerisol, had it removed ~2001. There of course, were some that NEVER had it, like the MMR, Chicken Pox, Polio, etc.. But he won't mention that. He'll assert that the common vaccines we give kids aren't fit for dogs.
And here's a gem,
Dr. Frank Engly, a researcher and microbiologist who served on the boards of the CDC, FDA and EPA during the 70s and 80s, warned:
The CDC cannot afford to admit thimerosal is toxic because they have been promoting it for several years...If they would have followed through with our 1982 report, vaccines would have been freed of thimerosal and all this autism as they tell me would not have occurred. But as it is, it all occurred.
Wow, bringing in a Dr.'s statement, which refers to a substance that was never in most vaccines, and refers to what "he was told". And of course, he doesn't mention that after ~2001, when the thimerisol was removed, rates of Autism continued to rise. But since this Dr. wasn't told that, he won't repeat it.
You know, I wish I HADN'T read this. I would think higher of Mr. Carrey if I didn't read that.
@nakedscience: Carrey's point is "we need more independent vaccine research not done by the drug companies selling the vaccines or by organizations under their influence."
You, on the other hand, are having a hissy fit and screaming no, no, no, case closed, case closed!
Just wait. Someday some un-vaccinated child will give someone pertussis or some other disease and that person will die, and THEN that person's family must sue the parent that did not vaccinate their child and then people will be so scared of law suits that they'll vaccinate anyway.
@PennyMartian: I hope that does happen (except for the person dying part). Refusing to vaccinate your child over this sort of BS is textbook negligence.
Carrey/McCarthy are not opposed to vaccines, but rather the chemicals added by the pharmaceutical companies to extend shelf life. The debate is as simple as that. The article here seems more of an attempt to drag down Huffington Post rather than Carrey's assertion.
@taraniso: They are, but they hide it. To quote McCarthy:
I do believe sadly it's going to take some diseases coming back to realize that we need to change and develop vaccines that are safe. If the vaccine companies are not listening to us, it's their f___ing fault that the diseases are coming back. They're making a product that's s___. If you give us a safe vaccine, we'll use it. It shouldn't be polio versus autism.
Yet, they keep moving the goalpost when it comes to what makes them "unsafe". At first it was the mercuray. When that was disproven, they changed their tactics. Again, to quote the science-tit:
We don't believe it's only the mercury. Aluminum and other toxins also play a role. The viruses in the vaccines themselves can be causing it, too
So the measles virus MAY be causing Autism, and until they get the Measles virus out of vaccines, she advocates people NOT taking it. I mean, how can you say "I'm not anti-vaccine" when you say the virus the vaccine prevents might have to be removed. What is the vaccine for then?
@taraniso: Not true, as explained in more detail above. But more fundamentally, there is no good science that says that vaccines are unsafe in the sense that they cause autism, much less that they are so unsafe that their risks outweigh the benefits. So even if it were true that McCarthy/Carrey aren't against anything except "unsafe" vaccines, what are they campaigning against? They are campaigning against a phantom threat that doesn't exist.
I made a new term recently. It's "Science-tits". It's when someone uses a woman to pass along dubious claims, but people don't care b/c she looks pretty.
@allyzay: Good one. I also like the female Dr. who explains the diet pills on commercials. My favorite, though, are these two science-tits explaining how the internet works:
@When'sUranusDay?_GitEmSteveDave: That's such a great name! As you can probably tell, I'm really passionate about this issue, and it bugs me enormously that a woman like her can become a "credible source" on something this important, yet can't get through a fucking interview without cursing. Every time I see one of her god-awful books in Barnes & Noble, I put another book on top (I do it for books on PALIN, too)
@ameliabedelia: Sounds like someone has been listening to Rebecca Watson on the Skeptics Guide.
To a lesser degree, I put Sylvia Brown on the list, b/c people believe her, and I only think it's b/c she's a woman. I doubt John Edwards could get away with, "Your kid, she's dead."
I'm the father of an autistic child and I'm not getting a kick out of this. Jim Carrey needs to simply shut his mouth and go back to talking out of his butthole for money.
Thank you for calling b.s. on the many-times disproven link between vaccines and autism.
@RandomLunatic: this is what upsets me the most about this subject is that, besides spreading misinformation and causing illness epidemics, these people are taking $$/time/energy away from research to help figure out what actually causes autism and how we can prevent it from occurring.
Wait-- what did I miss? I didn't see where he said that people shouldn't vaccinate their kids. He says we should examine the vaccine schedules and combinations in which these vaccinations are given, but he doesn't say stop vaccinating your kids. He questions whether each and every one of them is necessary, but he isn't throwing the baby out with the bath water. That said, I hope to God there isn't a link between vaccines and autism, but can we definitively say-- with what we know right now-- that there isn't? From purely a philosophical perspective, it's impossible to prove a negative. Maybe the cause is a perfect storm of biological predisposition, vaccine timing and other factors. Doesn't it just make sense to continue to study vaccines IN ADDITION to many other factors as a possible culprit?
@pooks: no, it doesn't, because it's a tremendous waste of money spent on, you know, PROVING A NEGATIVE which you just said yourself is impossible. there's been a lot of time and money already wasted on this topic and the en masse conclusion from the entire medical community is that vaccines do not cause autism. the only thing that has ever even remotely been considered a possible link was a preservative that has not been in use in many, many years! seriously! doctors and scientists have studied this, a lot! why the fuck should they continue throwing away time and money that could be spent on actual research that might actually be helpful in the field of autism because some internet person called "pook" and jenny mccarthy are just not quite satisfied with the answers?
@pooks: Sure. Now you give us a bajillion dollars to study every possible cause, and we will look into it right after we study whether autism is related to viewing pictures of Obama or living next to women with bangs.
@pooks: Research dollars are precious and in short supply. They should only be spent on researching hypotheses that have actual credibility and a chance of being correct. The vaccine issue has been studied very extensively and can now be put to rest.
Remember that every dollar that gets spent researching a discredited theory like this one is a dollar that isn't going to some other research that could actually benefit humanity much more.
@ArmCandy: If I had a 2 year old son that was happy and talkative one day and utterly non-communicative the next, and doctors couldn't tell me why, I would leave no stone unturned. And yeah, as pathetic and desperate as it may sound, if my son looked at pictures of Obama (since you feel it's just as arbitrary as a vaccine connection) one day, and lost his ability to speak the next, and then one day, I read about some parents of other children with the same symptoms, whose only common experience (at least to their knowledge) was that their children viewed pictures of Obama immediately before starting to withdraw or become incommunicative, you can bet I'd want researchers to take a closer look at what happens to toddlers when they view pictures of Obama (again, your example, not mine). Knowing of course that plenty of children have viewed pictures of Obama with no ill effects, I would take the possibility that there is a relationship between something so benign and my son's condition with a grain of salt, but I certainly wouldn't cross it off the list entirely... forever. But I guess that would lump me in with all those silly, ignorant, emotion driven parents incapable of evaluating my child with the same cold detachment of the medical research community.
@pooks: Well, yes. It's a lot harder to be emotionally detached and objective when it's your own child. That does mean that your opinion is less valid than people who have actually researched the issue for a living (not to mention that they have a lot more knowledge than you, too). And you're still forgetting that we HAVE already done quite a few studies on this issue, without finding any evidence of vaccines causing autism. At what point has enough research been done to satisfy you? Should we still be researching all scientific issues ever raised? It doesn't work like that. Science builds on itself cumulatively.
I agree with most of this post and 90 percent of the comments supporting it, but still have a nagging thought:
What about the scientists and doctors from the 20th century "proving" the health benefits of cigarettes (vitalizes the body, protects from cough, is in no way dangerous) in the face of questioning from much less qualified, but observant "average people"?
I can just see the quiet, page 16 (if we still have newspapers) Oops! story in about a decade.
I think it's imperative to protect kids from disease (and from a global epidemic of both measles and stupidity), but also have researches test the specific ingredients in vaccines -- whether or not they could be updated or improved upon. It's just not worth it to me if some corporate interest or elitism or celeb-hate caused valuable research to stall out.
@LetsHaveAKeithParty: For a decade, there has been intense scrutiny on vaccines and autism. They know its not the vaccine.
The "doctors reccomending ciggarettes" thing isn't the same. Those were often personal reccomendations or came from the ciggarette company's internal research. This isn't at all comparable to dozens of NIH funded, national studies.
Every penny we spend on vaccine research foir autism is a penny that isn'rt spent on enviromental and genetic factors.
Plus, a lot of companies have left the vaccine business since the 80s. If we continue to focus them, some might throw in the towel, which could leave us with no vaccine.
@LetsHaveAKeithParty: One of the really important things to remember is that science gets better over the years. People doing bad science seventy years ago doesn't discredit science now--in fact, their bad science seventy years ago only makes it more likely that scientists today are probably right. They could be wrong, sure--there's always room for error. But the better we get at science, the smaller that margin gets.
It's not like science is a single body of knowledge that encompasses all scientific ideas, ever, and that the preponderance of terrible ideas in the past discredits current scientific thinking.
A lot of folks try and use the "Scientists used to think that the world was getting too COLD!" argument to try and discredit Global Warming. That scientists were wrong thirty years ago doesn't really matter--that's not how science works.
@braak: not to mention that the studies or science weren't done in the cases this person is referencing -- comparing fucking cigarette ads with people playing doctors in them to actual NIH research is at best grossly irresponsible trolling. the internet needs to stop with this particular rumor because just a tiny bit more research into the topic would reveal that no, people were saying that cigarettes were unhealthy for a while.
08/07/09
08/07/09
08/07/09
What ever happened to those types of hackers? Now there nothing more than minor annoyances. Ohhhhhhhh, you shut down twitter for a couple hours. LAME!
08/07/09
08/07/09
08/07/09
04/22/09
After years of watching these folks methodically fight against vaccines, slowly eroding centuries of life-saving scientific achievement, I'm convinced that there's nothing we can say to get through to these people.
No, these fools won't change their minds until they start going to the funerals of people who die from exposure to these viruses, or until they know parents whose kids' health was damaged permanently because of exposure to viruses. Once enough of these funerals are covered by the media, and the media eviscerates the anti-vaccine movement, then the pendulum will swing the other way.
04/22/09
04/22/09
There are lots of perspectives on this thread. No one is more valid that another-- opinions are opinions. I would just like to suggest that like with other spectral diseases/disorders, we look at diagnosis methods among physicians to get a better understanding of just how wide this spectrum is.
04/22/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/22/09
You might find yourself considering that perhaps it's worthwhile to get the big pharma cock out of one's mouth before spouting off on something they haven't studied.
04/22/09
There's no evidence of the Lincoln Memorial if you look the other way and refuse to turn around.
What?!
Or:
These forward thinking vets also decided to remove thimerosal from animal vaccines in 1992, and yet this substance, which is 49% mercury, is still in human vaccines. Don't our children deserve as much consideration as our pets?
How many logical fallacies in this one statement alone? There's Appeal to Authority, Weasel Words, Bandwagon Fallacy, Poisoning the Well/Loaded Question, and Observational Selection. 5 fallacies? Wow. Oh, and let's remember that currently except for some influenza vaccines, vaccines that did have Thimerisol, had it removed ~2001. There of course, were some that NEVER had it, like the MMR, Chicken Pox, Polio, etc.. But he won't mention that. He'll assert that the common vaccines we give kids aren't fit for dogs.
And here's a gem,
Dr. Frank Engly, a researcher and microbiologist who served on the boards of the CDC, FDA and EPA during the 70s and 80s, warned:
The CDC cannot afford to admit thimerosal is toxic because they have been promoting it for several years...If they would have followed through with our 1982 report, vaccines would have been freed of thimerosal and all this autism as they tell me would not have occurred. But as it is, it all occurred.
Wow, bringing in a Dr.'s statement, which refers to a substance that was never in most vaccines, and refers to what "he was told". And of course, he doesn't mention that after ~2001, when the thimerisol was removed, rates of Autism continued to rise. But since this Dr. wasn't told that, he won't repeat it.
You know, I wish I HADN'T read this. I would think higher of Mr. Carrey if I didn't read that.
04/22/09
04/22/09
You, on the other hand, are having a hissy fit and screaming no, no, no, case closed, case closed!
Why so anti-science, spaz?
04/22/09
The tactic that Carrey is using is called "moving the goalposts".
04/22/09
04/23/09
You rest my case.
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
Yet, they keep moving the goalpost when it comes to what makes them "unsafe". At first it was the mercuray. When that was disproven, they changed their tactics. Again, to quote the science-tit:
So the measles virus MAY be causing Autism, and until they get the Measles virus out of vaccines, she advocates people NOT taking it. I mean, how can you say "I'm not anti-vaccine" when you say the virus the vaccine prevents might have to be removed. What is the vaccine for then?
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
To a lesser degree, I put Sylvia Brown on the list, b/c people believe her, and I only think it's b/c she's a woman. I doubt John Edwards could get away with, "Your kid, she's dead."
04/22/09
Thank you for calling b.s. on the many-times disproven link between vaccines and autism.
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
Remember that every dollar that gets spent researching a discredited theory like this one is a dollar that isn't going to some other research that could actually benefit humanity much more.
04/22/09
04/22/09
04/22/09
What about the scientists and doctors from the 20th century "proving" the health benefits of cigarettes (vitalizes the body, protects from cough, is in no way dangerous) in the face of questioning from much less qualified, but observant "average people"?
I can just see the quiet, page 16 (if we still have newspapers) Oops! story in about a decade.
I think it's imperative to protect kids from disease (and from a global epidemic of both measles and stupidity), but also have researches test the specific ingredients in vaccines -- whether or not they could be updated or improved upon. It's just not worth it to me if some corporate interest or elitism or celeb-hate caused valuable research to stall out.
04/22/09
The "doctors reccomending ciggarettes" thing isn't the same. Those were often personal reccomendations or came from the ciggarette company's internal research. This isn't at all comparable to dozens of NIH funded, national studies.
Every penny we spend on vaccine research foir autism is a penny that isn'rt spent on enviromental and genetic factors.
Plus, a lot of companies have left the vaccine business since the 80s. If we continue to focus them, some might throw in the towel, which could leave us with no vaccine.
04/22/09
It's not like science is a single body of knowledge that encompasses all scientific ideas, ever, and that the preponderance of terrible ideas in the past discredits current scientific thinking.
A lot of folks try and use the "Scientists used to think that the world was getting too COLD!" argument to try and discredit Global Warming. That scientists were wrong thirty years ago doesn't really matter--that's not how science works.
04/22/09
@LetsHaveAKeithParty: dude the oops story already came out on this topic: [briandeer.com]