Why is this the hill you want to die on, Hamilton? I mean, as SarahHeartburn, MissNormaDesmond and others have pointed out, these are not simply "rhetorical flourishes" -- they are active calls to enact violence against one of the most vulnerable groups in one of the most murderous places in the whole entire world.
And I personally am of the belief that we can judge and impugn an "artists" for his politics when he puts them out there with the express purpose of inciting crimes against humanity. Crimes in which HE HIMSELF is alleged to have participated.
This is not the guy to have a higher-brow conversation about. At all. Jesus.
Then there's this:
"One of Jamaica's most famous dancehall singers, Buju Banton, is being sought by police in Jamaica in connection with a homophobic attack on a group of gay men.
Mr Banton was allegedly one of a group of about a dozen armed men who forced their way into a house in Kingston on the morning of June 24 and beat up the occupants while shouting homophobic insults, according to the victims.
At least two people were taken to the hospital. Mr Banton - whose song Boom Boom Bye Bye threatens gay men with a "gunshot in ah head" - was identified by several witnesses and is wanted for questioning.
"There is a pattern of police indifference to attacks on gay men in Jamaica that goes far beyond what Buju Banton is alleged to have done in this case," said Rebecca Schleiser of Human Rights Watch, who has spoken to several of the victims. "Neither his fame nor the stigma attached to the victims should stand in the way of a full, fair and complete police investigation."
Peter Tatchell, of Outrage, said: "This substantiates our claims of the links between murder music and actual physical violence against gays and lesbians. Critics of the campaign [to stop murder music] have said that the homophobic content of his lyrics is 'ironic' or just 'fantasy'.
"Now the star is wanted for a very real violent incident."
Last month, concern that a concert in London by another dancehall favourite, Beenie Man, could incite violence against gays led to its cancellation. One of Beenie Man's songs contains the lyrics: "I'm a dreaming of a new Jamaica, come to execute all the gays."
Concern at the climate of homophobia in Jamaica has intensified in recent months following the murder of the country's most prominent gay activist, Brian Williamson.
Mr Williamson, a co-founder of Jamaican Forum for Lesbians, All-sexuals and Gays (J-Flag), was found with his throat cut and multiple stab wounds to his neck and face.
Jamaican law makes any act of physical intimacy between men punishable by jail, with the possibility of hard labour. A recent poll found 96% of Jamaicans were opposed to moves to legalise homosexual relations. Several gay Jamaicans have successfully claimed asylum in Britain on grounds of homophobia."
@ronniedobbs: Your tirade is overlooking a crucial element of this story - those jammin' beats.
If beating up gays is the secret to making such wondrous dancehall bangers, isn't that a small price to pay? That somebody would sully such beautiful music with their armchair moralizing, that is the real crime here.
Can I put something out there? Dylan is massively overrated. After having seen Don't look back my opinion of him is sealed. He's an arrogant jerk whose ass can't cash the check that his mouth is writing. --Blonde on blonde is still great though.
@i'm a bottle: Completely agree from what I've read/heard about his cantankerous arrogance, but totally disagree about him being overrated. I would have loved to have been born a few decades sooner to have vicariously experienced his monumental brilliance in his prime.
I also think "High Water" is going to become the planet's theme song pretty soon, at which point maybe his prescience will be appreciated.
@Lysergic Asset: That with "High Water" becoming this planet's theme song, that's exactly what I mean! This pretense to universalism! This talk of Nobel Prizes for Literature! When will people understand that he's only important to a certain class of white folks (people like me) who live in certain parts of America?
He's good, but not great. That's all I'm trying to say.
@i'm a bottle: Do you know what the lyrics to High Water portend (at least to my ears)? The planet being underwater. I wasn't talking hyperbolically there - about the vast reaches of his genius - I was merely saying I hope that's not some kind of prophecy.
As for the Nobel Prize in literature: that's definitely a stretch. But did President Obama deserve the Nobel Peace Prize before deploying more troops to Afghanistan? What an odd world we live in.
Dylan's Lyrics was my secular Bible when I was in high school, so I will continue to defend his relevance because he opened my mind so indelibly. I just don't see this generation providing posterity with any songwriters of his unique calibre - if you know of any, I'd welcome hearing about your personal favorites.
@i'm a bottle: Can I put out there that Dylan was only 24 and high out of his fucking mind the whole time during Dont Look Back? (sic, "Dont") That was the amphetamine fumes doing the talking.
Further, I just don't get people who dislike Bob Dylan. I mean, not dislike specific things like this three-wheel buggy ride of a Christmas album he just dragged out of the barn, or his temporary lapse into born-again insanity, but Dylan in general. My mind just cannot wrap itself around the concept, although I enjoy defending him until the cows come home.
@i'm a bottle: I dunno, could you not similarly say that Mozart was only important to a certain class of white Euro folks during his lifetime?
As for the Nobel Prize for literature--forget Dylan's holy cannon of verse, if he'd only just written that "autobiography" of his, he'd still deserve it. That thing was a masterpiece of poetic, self-mythologizing obfuscation. Just a bunch of enormous lies and clearly made-up anecdotes recounted in a picturesque Huck Finn idiom, but the writing is so good that you just want to leap out the window and call it quits if you ever had writerly ambitions.
@snugbug: amen. I can understand not caring for his sound, but his lyrics have to at least be acknowledged. These people just go into the same file with people that don't like the Beatles. I just have no argument for the sadist that wants to deny that kind of joy.
@Rosewater: Fuck that man. The sound has to be acknowledged as well. Dylan & The Hawks in '65 and '66 has to be one of the things I most wish I had scene in the history of rock music.
This line of reasoning might work with someone like Prince, an actual musical genius who just happens to be a religious wackadoo going door-to-door to peddle whatever harmless lovesexy message jehovah sent to him.
But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, Hamilton, and assume that this is some sort of meta-ironic Gawker thing with layers of humor that I am not sophisticated enough to understand, because "jammin" is such a stupid, piss-poor excuse for liking SOMEONE WHO ACTIVELY USES HIS CELEBRITY TO ADVOCATE THE MURDER OF HOMOSEXUALS.
I mean, seriously, wtf? Please tell me this is a joke I don't understand. Because I honestly thought you were more intelligent than this.
This is the first, and hopefully last time that I find caps-lock necessary on this site.
By pretending to be discussing two separate issues, this post actually conflates them. Only an idiot would say his political views make him a bad musician. The quality of the music isn't the question. Either it's sensible to protest when people support blatant, murderous hate in their art or it's not, but it's not dependent on the quality of the art. You seem to be saying that it would be all right to protest this guy if his music sucked, but since it doesn't, everyone should clam up.
The man isn't just using the occasional homophobic slur, and he isn't voicing understandable rage against people who oppress him -- he wants to kill faggots the same way the Klan wanted to kill niggers, because he's hateful. It's sad that this is what he's devoting his undeniable talent to, but if you're telling me that because of the existence of that talent I should turn a deaf ear to the substance of what he's saying, you've lost me. Because you see faggots actually get killed. If you want to ignore that, that's your karma, but don't expect me to go along with you. And don't expect me not to be disgusted by the idea of celebrating the music and giving it prizes. No matter how "jammin'" it may be.
@AzureTexan: Hopefully that hypothetical record would be cut short by Dylan barging in and berating her until she cries and runs off. Followed by thirty minutes of sweet sweet silence.
He's still with Jews for Jesus, right? We caught that way back when he did up the Sermon on the Mount as Times They Are A'Changing.
We all follow along, because he's known for his judgment. His paens to such serial killers as Wes Hardin, Crazy Joe Gallo, and Hurricane Carter convinced us he was holy and sincere.
Where is Tipper Gore? I'm pretty sure we already went through this kind of thing with Ice-T quite some time ago, except with cops in place of gays.
Mr. Banton has rights to both free speech and artistic license, but the price of those rights is that he also has to recognize the countervaling right to vigorously protest what he says.
Personally, I'm disgusted by the sentiments displayed towards gays and women in dancehall culture. But I also have every right to put out a mixtape in which I lay out the numerous and detailed humiliations Mr. Banton will suffer at the hands of the Hell's Angels, Halsted Street chapter.
@AndPreciousLittleofThat: Tipper Gore wanted to outright censor that music. GLAAD is just saying please don't give the guy a Grammy.
Also, there is a long history of minorities suffering at the hands of police abuse. This is just a guy who hates gays for no apparent reason other than they are gay. I think both have the right to sing about these things if they want, but the former seems like a worthier form of expression.
@nozer: I see what you did there. I just try to exercise plausible deniability when listening to California Dreamin'. And, well, they never preached about the virtues of incest from the stage.
This post is a joke, right? Is it so droll I'm just not getting it, or what?
Do you have any idea of the violence and repression that gays in Jamaica suffer at the hands of the police and the courts and everyday scumbags? This is no joke. This asshole incites people to kill. Friends of mine, a gay couple, lived in Jamaica for a few years and only because one of them had a diplomatic passport were they able to get about without problems. I'm stunned at your insensitivity and ignorance of what's really happening there.
Can't wait till the Klan comes up with a jammin' beat. Oh, wait, they already have. They've beaten a lot of people to death.
@SarahHeartburn: Oh, I was referring to the comment about Frank Sinatra, who was a raging homophobe, but I think maybe the commenter knows that and is being ironic. Sadly, I'm afraid the post itself is entirely serious.
@MissNormaDesmond: Take it back MissNormaDesmond. Nobody lived and loved like Frank. NOBODY. Plus, he was an Italian guy who fought for equal rights for the Blacks in the 1950s (awesomely ahead of his time). Well he fought for Sammy Davis Junior's rights anyways.
@ParahSalin: He certainly wasn't on the level of the subject of the post, no, but given that he was in the movie business and had to have worked with numerous gay people at one point or another, he didn't have the same excuses the average joe in the 50s did for accepting and maintaining homophobic stereotypes. He'd been close friends with Montgomery Clift until he found out Clift was gay, then cut him dead. That's kind of shitty.
12/08/09
And I personally am of the belief that we can judge and impugn an "artists" for his politics when he puts them out there with the express purpose of inciting crimes against humanity. Crimes in which HE HIMSELF is alleged to have participated.
This is not the guy to have a higher-brow conversation about. At all. Jesus.
Then there's this:
"One of Jamaica's most famous dancehall singers, Buju Banton, is being sought by police in Jamaica in connection with a homophobic attack on a group of gay men.
Mr Banton was allegedly one of a group of about a dozen armed men who forced their way into a house in Kingston on the morning of June 24 and beat up the occupants while shouting homophobic insults, according to the victims.
At least two people were taken to the hospital. Mr Banton - whose song Boom Boom Bye Bye threatens gay men with a "gunshot in ah head" - was identified by several witnesses and is wanted for questioning.
"There is a pattern of police indifference to attacks on gay men in Jamaica that goes far beyond what Buju Banton is alleged to have done in this case," said Rebecca Schleiser of Human Rights Watch, who has spoken to several of the victims. "Neither his fame nor the stigma attached to the victims should stand in the way of a full, fair and complete police investigation."
Peter Tatchell, of Outrage, said: "This substantiates our claims of the links between murder music and actual physical violence against gays and lesbians. Critics of the campaign [to stop murder music] have said that the homophobic content of his lyrics is 'ironic' or just 'fantasy'.
"Now the star is wanted for a very real violent incident."
Last month, concern that a concert in London by another dancehall favourite, Beenie Man, could incite violence against gays led to its cancellation. One of Beenie Man's songs contains the lyrics: "I'm a dreaming of a new Jamaica, come to execute all the gays."
Concern at the climate of homophobia in Jamaica has intensified in recent months following the murder of the country's most prominent gay activist, Brian Williamson.
Mr Williamson, a co-founder of Jamaican Forum for Lesbians, All-sexuals and Gays (J-Flag), was found with his throat cut and multiple stab wounds to his neck and face.
Jamaican law makes any act of physical intimacy between men punishable by jail, with the possibility of hard labour. A recent poll found 96% of Jamaicans were opposed to moves to legalise homosexual relations. Several gay Jamaicans have successfully claimed asylum in Britain on grounds of homophobia."
[www.guardian.co.uk]
12/08/09
If beating up gays is the secret to making such wondrous dancehall bangers, isn't that a small price to pay? That somebody would sully such beautiful music with their armchair moralizing, that is the real crime here.
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I also think "High Water" is going to become the planet's theme song pretty soon, at which point maybe his prescience will be appreciated.
12/08/09
He's good, but not great. That's all I'm trying to say.
12/08/09
As for the Nobel Prize in literature: that's definitely a stretch. But did President Obama deserve the Nobel Peace Prize before deploying more troops to Afghanistan? What an odd world we live in.
Dylan's Lyrics was my secular Bible when I was in high school, so I will continue to defend his relevance because he opened my mind so indelibly. I just don't see this generation providing posterity with any songwriters of his unique calibre - if you know of any, I'd welcome hearing about your personal favorites.
12/08/09
Further, I just don't get people who dislike Bob Dylan. I mean, not dislike specific things like this three-wheel buggy ride of a Christmas album he just dragged out of the barn, or his temporary lapse into born-again insanity, but Dylan in general. My mind just cannot wrap itself around the concept, although I enjoy defending him until the cows come home.
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As for the Nobel Prize for literature--forget Dylan's holy cannon of verse, if he'd only just written that "autobiography" of his, he'd still deserve it. That thing was a masterpiece of poetic, self-mythologizing obfuscation. Just a bunch of enormous lies and clearly made-up anecdotes recounted in a picturesque Huck Finn idiom, but the writing is so good that you just want to leap out the window and call it quits if you ever had writerly ambitions.
12/08/09
02:21 AM
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I’m not comfortable giving money and cultural capital to people who preach hate and violence.
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But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, Hamilton, and assume that this is some sort of meta-ironic Gawker thing with layers of humor that I am not sophisticated enough to understand, because "jammin" is such a stupid, piss-poor excuse for liking SOMEONE WHO ACTIVELY USES HIS CELEBRITY TO ADVOCATE THE MURDER OF HOMOSEXUALS.
I mean, seriously, wtf? Please tell me this is a joke I don't understand. Because I honestly thought you were more intelligent than this.
This is the first, and hopefully last time that I find caps-lock necessary on this site.
12/08/09
The man isn't just using the occasional homophobic slur, and he isn't voicing understandable rage against people who oppress him -- he wants to kill faggots the same way the Klan wanted to kill niggers, because he's hateful. It's sad that this is what he's devoting his undeniable talent to, but if you're telling me that because of the existence of that talent I should turn a deaf ear to the substance of what he's saying, you've lost me. Because you see faggots actually get killed. If you want to ignore that, that's your karma, but don't expect me to go along with you. And don't expect me not to be disgusted by the idea of celebrating the music and giving it prizes. No matter how "jammin'" it may be.
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We all follow along, because he's known for his judgment. His paens to such serial killers as Wes Hardin, Crazy Joe Gallo, and Hurricane Carter convinced us he was holy and sincere.
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(Sorry... "Lenny Bruce" is one of my favorite awful Dylan songs.)
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Lenny, Lenny
Your thoughts for a penny?
Nope, found it. I take it back. Lyrics are cooler than either
Sar-ahhh, Sarahh ...
or, on the same album
Jo-eyyyy, Joeyyyyy ...
Same tune, one a homage to his wife of the time, the other a hymn to a brutal murdering mobster.
Wonder if you confronted anybody who sings of Lenny Bruce and asked - yes, but what did he mean? - they could answer.
12/08/09
Hattie Carroll: You see this here cane, white boy? I'm onna lay it up aside yer head in 'bout two seconds ...
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[www.youtube.com]
12/08/09
Mr. Banton has rights to both free speech and artistic license, but the price of those rights is that he also has to recognize the countervaling right to vigorously protest what he says.
Personally, I'm disgusted by the sentiments displayed towards gays and women in dancehall culture. But I also have every right to put out a mixtape in which I lay out the numerous and detailed humiliations Mr. Banton will suffer at the hands of the Hell's Angels, Halsted Street chapter.
12/08/09
Also, there is a long history of minorities suffering at the hands of police abuse. This is just a guy who hates gays for no apparent reason other than they are gay. I think both have the right to sing about these things if they want, but the former seems like a worthier form of expression.
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EDIT: If you care, it's in my reply to Atilla below.
12/08/09
01:53 AM
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Do you have any idea of the violence and repression that gays in Jamaica suffer at the hands of the police and the courts and everyday scumbags? This is no joke. This asshole incites people to kill. Friends of mine, a gay couple, lived in Jamaica for a few years and only because one of them had a diplomatic passport were they able to get about without problems. I'm stunned at your insensitivity and ignorance of what's really happening there.
Can't wait till the Klan comes up with a jammin' beat. Oh, wait, they already have. They've beaten a lot of people to death.
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(Sorry... I couldn't think of a good homophobic filmmaker off the top of my head so I had to opt for racism. Hmmm maybe Vincente Minnelli?)
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12:58 AM
01:15 AM