So, no fans of "Brief Interviews with Hideous Men" or "Everything Or More: A Compact History of Infinity" here? What is RONG with me that those two books are my favorites of his? Weird--former is an intensely emotional ride, the latter a rigorous mathematical treaty that you almost need a Ph.D to grasp. I suppose it speaks to DFW's range as a writer.
Depression is a serious condition with many levels. The worst level is what I refer to as "the black hole." One minute, you may be feeling functional, the next - it's like falling into a dark tunnel with no light at the end. Unfortunately, those who have never experienced this kind of depression do not grasp the severity of it. As someone who has spent her entire life like this (even as a child), I was given lecture after lecture about how I was "indulging myself and not taking others into consideration." What many do not understand is that you really have no control - no one asks for this way of life. The same goes for suicide in may cases. There are those who make attempts at it as a cry for help. When you're in the black hole, you can't see anything - all you feel is pain and all you care about is unplugging. People in this state aren't even in their bodies - you're simply a shell forced to move and slap a smile on your face. You also make a major attempt at suicide. These are the people who give no warning, and they're damned serious about it. Is it selfish? I'm sure many see it that way. But the person going through it honestly does not have the capacity to see anything. I was fortunate that I was found at the last minutes of my life, but I can not tell you the disappointment that I felt at not succeeding. I know take meds for this as it took me forever to realize that it's a true physical condition - the brain over produces/under produces whatever chemicals it needs to remain stable. I'm out of the hole. But I know if I stop taking the meds, I'll slip right back into it. All I want for people to understand is that sometimes, there is no choice because the pain is unbearable. I was lucky that I had someone who understood that and realized what my next step would be. Not everyone is this fortunate.
@gonzosmom: Good of you to elaborate on this and share a personal story. Depression = very, very complicated bidness. If only one could "will oneself" out of a chemical imbalance in the brain. As with the phenom of addiction, depression has nothing to do with one's level of intelligence, brilliance, education, etc.
@gonzosmom: Thanks. I've been there, too. During the time that I was suicidally depressed, my life was actually at a very high point, and I knew it, and was very grateful for it. I just couldn't feel it, and the despair of having had the kind of good fortune some people dream of and being unable to experience any joy in it made me feel that much more hopeless. Thank Whoever, medication worked for me, too. I never understand why people can't recognize that the brain is an organ of the body, and like any other organ, it can malfunction or be injured.
@gonzosmom: I guess I'll step in here. If you're a regular around these parts who picks up on shit, you might notice that I try to cover this topic relatively well. Three of my more obvious efforts:
Without getting too oversharey, it's one of those subjects that's important to me, or as Snugbug astutely put it, "Depression = very, very complicated bidness. If only one could "will oneself" out of a chemical imbalance in the brain." So: there are resources, and people out there with common experiences, and it's something the world's working on, and plenty to be said for it. And the more that's said: the better.
"As if how we construct meaning were not actually a matter of personal, intentional choice, of conscious decision. Plus, there's the matter of arrogance... There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is WHAT to worship... If you worship money and things-- if they are where you tap real meaning in life-- then you will never have enough. Never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your own body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly, and when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally plant you... Worship power-- you will feel weak and afraid, and you will need ever more power over others to keep the fear at bay. Worship your intellect, being seen as smart-- you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of being found out. And so on... Our own present culture has harnessed these forces in ways that have yielded extraordinary wealth and comfort and personal freedom. The freedom to be lords of our tiny skull-sized kingdoms, alone at the center of all creation... The really important freedom involves attention, and awareness, and discipline, and effort, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them, over and over, in myriad petty little unsexy ways, every day.That is real freedom."
I remember being on the phone with my (now) ex one year ago and suddenly hearing "oh my god, DFW hanged himself" on the other end of the line. It felt like someone had punched me in the stomach, and to some extent still does.
As much as his death saddened me, though, I have to respect him for actually taking his own life.
@mbak: WTF? I understand not blaming him for succumbing to his illness, but respecting someone for committing suicide is bizarre, and as wrong-headed as vilifying them for it. He died of a disease. That's neither to be scorned nor applauded, it's just a sad fact.
@metroville: May I suggest you try this: Skip ahead to the chapter titled "Winter B.S. 1960 - Tuscon, AZ." You won't be spoiling anything. If it doesn't hook you, then don't bother reading the rest, because that's about as good as it gets. But in my opinion it's pretty friggin' good.
(page 157 in the Back Bay Books version with the blue sky & cloud on the cover.)
@ScientificMapp: Thank you. I have enjoyed his essays and short stories (and I read The Magic Mountain and Crime and Punishment this summer for heaven's sakes!) so I always figured I could get through IJ...but I have not been able to get very far in. There have been brilliant passages too. Damn.
But my was I moved by DFW's story--to tears. What a sweet soul he is. I had no idea. I was especially moved by the story of his loving, awesome parents and their commitment to his wellbeing and struggle. I really ached for them, especially, after he died.
I don't understand why suicide can be celebrated. Not trying to be flip - really! But I don't feel anything for a brilliant person who couldn't stand it. If you're brilliant, you find a way.
@The Marble Faun: Clearly it's not the manner of death that is being celebrated - it's the manner of life.
I don't really buy into the unbearable genius thing either. But, obviously, some of us just can't hang on, brilliant mind or no. It's a sad, shitty fact.
@The Marble Faun: Two points. First, pretty obviously, it's not his suicide that's being celebrated: people celebrate what he did and who he was before he killed himself, and see his suicide as a tragedy both in a personal sense and to the literary world.
Second, if you read Infinite Jest itself, there are a few passages describing major depression in terms of what characters are feeling but that, in retrospect, are pretty clearly autobiographical. What's described is not some sense of ennui, regret, woe-is-me or meaninglessness; it's a minute-to-minute agony that is sickening even to read about. The New Yorker article that came out six months ago did a pretty good job of describing what Wallace was going through; I'd read before you judge.
@The Marble Faun: If you knew the first thing about DFW's history, you'd know how hard he tried to find a way and how much he didn't want to die. He really wanted to stick around - he just couldn't.
I was near the epicenter of it, as an English student at Pomona, and so I saw and experienced all the pain that his suicide caused firsthand, and still, it's the only time that I heard of a suicide and didn't think, if only s/he'd hung on a bit longer. He hung on as long as he could, and then some.
@phnuggle: Thanks for that comment. The truth is, I don't know much about him, and my comment was more about suicide, generally, than DFW. But you're right, there are things I don't know about depression, and ought to have done my due diligence before commenting.
I don't understand why suicide can be celebrated. Not trying to be flip - really! But I don't feel anything for a brilliant person who couldn't stand it. If you're brilliant, you find a way.
@The Marble Faun: who the hell taught you that falsehood? are your brilliant and always finding a way? if you are not brilliant, how many brilliant people have you shadowed and noted have always found a way?
I really want to see your data.
@The Marble Faun: Do you understand mental illness? It's a disease that some people are just not able to recover from. Some people are lucky enough to be able to "find a way", but some aren't.
Also, you are being extremely flip about an extremely serious issue. Just because you say you're not trying to doesn't mean that you aren't.
@The Marble Faun: If you're not brilliant, you write things like this. Twice.
Please go and learn something about mental illness before you say senseless, unkind things. You might as well be saying, "If you're brilliant, you figure out how to make your pancreas produce enough insulin to properly control your blood sugar levels."
@MissNormaDesmond: I apologize for posting twice. Computer snafu, plain and simple.
But to use that as an illustration of my own intelligence is a cheap shot and childish.
My comment, I admit, however, was not brilliant - you're right. Poorly worded and not well-thought out in structure nor sentiment. And true, I admit I don't know enough about the depths of depression. That's why I said I don't get it. But maybe being educated in an un-snide way would help me. Maybe you can keep that in mind next time you read something with which you don't agree.
@The Marble Faun: You said something stupid and hurtful about a tragedy. If you want to try to paint yourself as a victim because I didn't hold your hand and gently educate you as to why you were being insensitive, go ahead, but I don't think you're going to win any points for martyrdom.
In the time of your life, live—so that in that good time there shall be no ugliness or death for yourself or for any life your life touches. Seek goodness everywhere, and when it is found, bring it out of its hiding place and let it be free and unashamed.
Place in matter and in flesh the least of the values, for these are the things that hold death and must pass away. Discover in all things that which shines and is beyond corruption. Encourage virtue in whatever heart it may have been driven into secrecy and sorrow by the shame and terror of the world. Ignore the obvious, for it is unworthy of the clear eye and the kindly heart.
Be the inferior of no man, or of any men be superior. Remember that every man is a variation of yourself. No man's guilt is not yours, nor is any man's innocence a thing apart. Despise evil and ungodliness, but not men of ungodliness or evil. These, understand. Have no shame in being kindly and gentle but if the time comes in the time of your life to kill, kill and have no regret.
In the time of your life, live—so that in that wondrous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it.
@MissNormaDesmond: i read him in hs at what was and remains the hardest part of my life, and, yes. those words helped get me thru. that and friends. and a little shred of family.
I love to read these anecdotal accounts of his personality.. Hindsight bias makes it difficult not to see a depressive cognitive framework bleeding into his view of self. His may be more striking because he didn't seem to have that negative lens over his eyes when seeing others..but only toward himself and the future. it goes a bit against the tenets of cognitive theory. Good for him.
Good article. DFW still messing with your mind. I still struggle to find the humor in Girl with Curious Hair. Is it funny cause they try to light that girl on fire? I wonder if the boy scout/Republican turned scenester character was his surrogate.
I haven't commented in so long I can't even remember my password, but... the world is a much poorer and emptier place without DFW in it. My heart breaks for him still.
Already a year? Damn. One thing I've been very impressed by is how many other writers spoke of his immense generosity, his kindness, his very good advice freely given. Yes, he'd read your dumb screenplay (jk). Big heart, a wonderful writer we'll send years figuring out, a cool person and a deeply good human being at the core. Awful that he couldn't see that in himself. Can't pretend to know what he went through with his depression and despair. Just a loss, not only for what we wish he had time to write, but just as a person who it seems was deeply loved by people who knew him. Suicide is always an awful tragedy for those left behind. RIP.
@Baroness: I've never made it through Infinite Jest, but I actually use the title essay in "A Supposedly Fun Thing..." as a resource for folks I talk to who are struggling with depression- their own or a loved one's. In between the snarky footnotes and the commentary on consumerism, DFW did a great job of describing the deep feeling of absolute nothingness and lack of energy to live that depression can bring a person to. I guess he wrote from his own experience, and I'm sorry that he couldn't make it through- I really looked forward to his writings about growing old.
10/15/09
#delusionalselfimportance #byeee
09/13/09
I miss him too.
09/13/09
Depression is a serious condition with many levels. The worst level is what I refer to as "the black hole." One minute, you may be feeling functional, the next - it's like falling into a dark tunnel with no light at the end. Unfortunately, those who have never experienced this kind of depression do not grasp the severity of it. As someone who has spent her entire life like this (even as a child), I was given lecture after lecture about how I was "indulging myself and not taking others into consideration." What many do not understand is that you really have no control - no one asks for this way of life. The same goes for suicide in may cases. There are those who make attempts at it as a cry for help. When you're in the black hole, you can't see anything - all you feel is pain and all you care about is unplugging. People in this state aren't even in their bodies - you're simply a shell forced to move and slap a smile on your face. You also make a major attempt at suicide. These are the people who give no warning, and they're damned serious about it. Is it selfish? I'm sure many see it that way. But the person going through it honestly does not have the capacity to see anything. I was fortunate that I was found at the last minutes of my life, but I can not tell you the disappointment that I felt at not succeeding. I know take meds for this as it took me forever to realize that it's a true physical condition - the brain over produces/under produces whatever chemicals it needs to remain stable. I'm out of the hole. But I know if I stop taking the meds, I'll slip right back into it. All I want for people to understand is that sometimes, there is no choice because the pain is unbearable. I was lucky that I had someone who understood that and realized what my next step would be. Not everyone is this fortunate.
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[gawker.com]
[gawker.com]
and this:
[gawker.com]
Without getting too oversharey, it's one of those subjects that's important to me, or as Snugbug astutely put it, "Depression = very, very complicated bidness. If only one could "will oneself" out of a chemical imbalance in the brain." So: there are resources, and people out there with common experiences, and it's something the world's working on, and plenty to be said for it. And the more that's said: the better.
09/13/09
--from David Forster Wallace's THIS IS WATER
09/13/09
WOW, thank you thank you for posting this.
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As much as his death saddened me, though, I have to respect him for actually taking his own life.
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(page 157 in the Back Bay Books version with the blue sky & cloud on the cover.)
09/13/09
But my was I moved by DFW's story--to tears. What a sweet soul he is. I had no idea. I was especially moved by the story of his loving, awesome parents and their commitment to his wellbeing and struggle. I really ached for them, especially, after he died.
09/13/09
09/13/09
I don't really buy into the unbearable genius thing either. But, obviously, some of us just can't hang on, brilliant mind or no. It's a sad, shitty fact.
09/13/09
09/13/09
Second, if you read Infinite Jest itself, there are a few passages describing major depression in terms of what characters are feeling but that, in retrospect, are pretty clearly autobiographical. What's described is not some sense of ennui, regret, woe-is-me or meaninglessness; it's a minute-to-minute agony that is sickening even to read about. The New Yorker article that came out six months ago did a pretty good job of describing what Wallace was going through; I'd read before you judge.
[www.newyorker.com]
09/13/09
I was near the epicenter of it, as an English student at Pomona, and so I saw and experienced all the pain that his suicide caused firsthand, and still, it's the only time that I heard of a suicide and didn't think, if only s/he'd hung on a bit longer. He hung on as long as he could, and then some.
09/14/09
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09/13/09
I really want to see your data.
09/13/09
Also, you are being extremely flip about an extremely serious issue. Just because you say you're not trying to doesn't mean that you aren't.
09/13/09
Please go and learn something about mental illness before you say senseless, unkind things. You might as well be saying, "If you're brilliant, you figure out how to make your pancreas produce enough insulin to properly control your blood sugar levels."
09/14/09
But to use that as an illustration of my own intelligence is a cheap shot and childish.
My comment, I admit, however, was not brilliant - you're right. Poorly worded and not well-thought out in structure nor sentiment. And true, I admit I don't know enough about the depths of depression. That's why I said I don't get it. But maybe being educated in an un-snide way would help me. Maybe you can keep that in mind next time you read something with which you don't agree.
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Place in matter and in flesh the least of the values, for these are the things that hold death and must pass away. Discover in all things that which shines and is beyond corruption. Encourage virtue in whatever heart it may have been driven into secrecy and sorrow by the shame and terror of the world. Ignore the obvious, for it is unworthy of the clear eye and the kindly heart.
Be the inferior of no man, or of any men be superior. Remember that every man is a variation of yourself. No man's guilt is not yours, nor is any man's innocence a thing apart. Despise evil and ungodliness, but not men of ungodliness or evil. These, understand. Have no shame in being kindly and gentle but if the time comes in the time of your life to kill, kill and have no regret.
In the time of your life, live—so that in that wondrous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it.
William Saroyan
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