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oopsidoo
01/26/09

In reply to Pope Reinstates Holocaust-Denying Bishop
I have mixed feelings on all this. On the one hand, the Catholic church has slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, with the inquisition, the crusades, and with its aquiescence to the Nazis and Nazi sympathizers. Not to mention what it's doing to the environment, women's health and the poverty by opposing birth control and abortions. So I'm all for the Pope shooting himself in the foot and speeding up the demise of organized religion. On the other hand, if I look at just the specifics of his actions, two things come to mind. First, I don't think it's right to blame an entire nation for the actions of some, even many, or even most of its people; Germany was an absolute state, if you spoke up against Nazis, you got killed; do we as Americans apologize for all the atrocities committed by our gov't in various wars and fundings of other countries' wars? And we're a democracy, no one would get sent to jail for speaking up against the arms we sent to Iraq, Afghanistan, the Sandanistas, the millions of Cambodians and Vietnamese that died because we went in and then pulled out; Having said that, I know Germans and Austrians of the Pope's generation. They tend to be very eager to defend the German victims and minimize the impact on Jews and other victims; sure, bring up the Germans who were gay, Catholic, etc. who got sent to the camps as well. But damn, show a little empathy. Arguing about whether it was 200k Jews or 6 million Jews has no point except to minimize the wrong doing. What does it matter how many hundreds of thousands or millions it was? It was still genocide and cold blooded murder. The younger generation is very sensitive to the genocide in their history; the older generation, especially Austrians like the Pope who didn't go through the public shaming that Germany did, tend to be more apologist. And it's showing with his actions. Again, maybe it's for the best, because it'll speed the demise of organized religion. But it sure makes me appreciate John Paul II much more.
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Larry Fine
01/26/09

In reply to Pope Reinstates Holocaust-Denying Bishop
Yes, let's all get angry at the Pope for giving this man a platform from which to spew anti-Semitic remarks. Because nothing like that ever happens around here - this weekend.
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Mediahohoho
01/26/09

In reply to Pope Reinstates Holocaust-Denying Bishop
Thus does John Paul II continue his legacy. No change here, folks.
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Dorothea Bercq
01/26/09

In reply to Pope Reinstates Holocaust-Denying Bishop
To be fair, the Pope was merely reversing the priest's excommunication on unrelated grounds, probably not even aware of the priest's Holocaust denial.

But, as a (lapsed) German Catholic, I don't believe the man should be a priest. There are thousands of other people who shouldn't be priests, most likely, but one must draw the line somewhere.

Besides, in my view the Pope is (if anything) an embodiment of archaic evil. He reminds me of the first part of the passage where Walter Pater describes the Mona Lisa:

"She is older than the rocks among which she sits; like the vampire, she has been dead many times, and learned the secrets of the grave; and has been a diver in deep seas, and keeps their fallen day about her; and trafficked for strange webs with Eastern merchants . . ."

He is simply no representative of true religion at all.
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FormerEnglishMajor
01/26/09

@Dorothea Bercq:

"probably not even aware of the priest's Holocaust denial"

The Vatican is extremely aware of the symbolism of everything it does. It is a religion BASED on symbols! So of course they were aware of his denial views.

There are 4 Catholic churches in my town. 3 had pedophile priests, 1 had that famous guy-who-embezzled-millions. The bishop feigns ignorance and is shocked, shocked I tell you, that there is gambling in Casablanca. But they all know what is going.

These are the actions of a group in decline. They could care less about criticisms at this point- they have painfully empty churches everywhere in the developed world, and are only showing growth in followers among the least-educated in the undeveloped world.

These are the people who excommunicated the innocent Galileo and just resolved that one out a few years ago. So it figures they would "de-excommunicate" a guilty party. Go for it, Vatican! You are just continuing your fall from power and confirming what skeptics believe of you.
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CherriSpryte
01/25/09

In reply to Pope Reinstates Holocaust-Denying Bishop
Okay, so I may be drunk on a Sunday night, but I've been to Auschwitz twice (no seriously, i have been, and how many people can say that?), so here's my take:

Religion is most sincere, and most genuine, when its a comfort of the oppressed. Religion in the hands of a member of the ruling majority is manipulative and abusive the majority of the time. The things this Pope have done have NOT positively benefited humanity at all, on any level, and he needsto STFU.

John Paul II was sent to work in a damn rock quarry to avoid joining or aiding the Nazi Party. This one signed the hell up. There are some causes, no matter the pressure, that you fight against - even if it means you're hauling slate in wheelbarrows for a few years. This Pope didn't fight it, and it shows in every damn thing he does. Deny the Holocaust? No Problem! Issue a statement supporting the global gag rule? Totally logical! Not hypocritical at all!

In conclusion 1) I am drunk and 2) I can't stand this Pope.
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Iceland Spar
01/26/09

@CherriSpryte: I've been, once, and I doubt that I will ever be able to get up the courage to go again.

I disagree with your characterization of Benedict's being a Nazi - he, like all children living in Nazi Germany, was forced to join the Hitler Youth. And all debates about his past aside, I do believe that he has written some truly beautiful things, most especially God is Love - [www.vatican.va]
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bbug
01/26/09

@CherriSpryte: Even though you are drunk, you are far more coherent and well-spoken (written?) about this than I can manage to be. I feel like this dude is taking the culture I grew up in away from me, and to a scary place I do not want to be a part of. Like, I didn't care about Catholicism at all until he started doing these heinous things that I think are an affront to all the kick-ass nuns and crazy great aunts who raised me and taught me to say the rosary. Does that make sense?
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Robert Synnott
01/26/09

@bbug: Well, at the best of times, Catholicism was hardly very nice. JP2 presented a good face to it, but the church was still engaged in highly undesirable things; lying to people in Africa about the efficacy of condoms as a prophylactic, systematic child abuse cover-ups, interference with politics in Ireland (the church killed our first attempt to bring in free healthcare, in the 50s) and Poland, and so forth.
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CherriSpryte
01/26/09

@Robert Synnott: JP2's "interference" in politics in Poland was kind of a key factor in resisting, and then getting rid of, communism. His incredibly conservative views on birth control and abortion and women's rights in general were definitely damaging, but the work he did in Poland was for the best.
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belltolls
01/25/09

In reply to Pope Reinstates Holocaust-Denying Bishop
Papalblum.
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Calraigh
01/25/09

In reply to Pope Reinstates Holocaust-Denying Bishop
Can anyone explain the little red star beside me here? Is this the equivalent of wearing an armband now?
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belltolls
01/25/09

@Calraigh★: Could be the beginning of a kickass stigmata.
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Calraigh
01/25/09

@belltolls: Excellent. Better stock up so.
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registered
01/25/09

@Calraigh★: Also, while I fight against the existence of Hiberno-English or whatever it is called, you have kind of killed my point.

Those two sentences - "beside me here" "Is this .. now"

are so Irish.
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leonleonleon
01/26/09

@Calraigh★: It's like the Black Dot from Treasure Island, you're now marked to die by the hands of pirates
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Uncle_Billy_Slumming
01/25/09

In reply to Pope Reinstates Holocaust-Denying Bishop
Facts available here:

[www.hdot.org]
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Steve Holt's Mother Part Deux
01/25/09

In reply to Pope Reinstates Holocaust-Denying Bishop
"I mean, ve vere just minding our own business, vhen dis group of tugs started taking over de Berlin 7-11. Not our fault! Ve vere running late to de opera and no time to intercede, da?"
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Calraigh
01/25/09

In reply to Pope Reinstates Holocaust-Denying Bishop
A little bit facile? Much like being a little bit pregnant.

DOES NOT COMPUTE.
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