It would be far, far better if Congress and the President released one unified statement of fact as to what's on the table and what is not. This piecemeal, ad hoc approach just confuses everyone. Even Rom didn't know what his boss's views were on major aspects of healthcare reform.
I can't say this was the smartest thing to have done at a highly volatile town meeting, but it certainly isn't the dumbest. See the prehistoric, 2nd amendment brain-maladied, militia-of-one-assface, from yesterday.
So I don't think Rep. Lee should be the new face of Democratic insensitivity. But I do think this fringe-produced complete frantic paranoia of the highest ridiculous fuckery has a way of draining people and causing the kind of inertia usually reserved for tired parents who are done listening to a whining toddler throwing a tantrum in Wal-mart. If only the birther/healthcare crazy-coup could be resolved with prune juice in a sippy cup.
Oh, and the other side brings guns and calls the president the n-word - but you decide to point this out as an example of... oops. My brain exploded. I'm only helping Denton get richer as I type these words...
Way to have your cake and eat it too. Rep. Jackson-Lee sucks, but you guys are down for the cause. The last administration stole an election and faked a war. But yeah, impolite complete answers to the fake questioner's questions should be avoided. With friends like you...
@Hey_mikey: This is such a tired old argument. Because Bush was so bad, Democrats can do just anything, anything at all. They can't be faulted because, y'know, Bush was worse. That's a tu quoque logical fallacy.
For those too lazy to click links (i'm looking at you hilikusopus/momo), she was on the phone with a House health care hotline so she could answer these people's inane fucking questions to the best of her ability.
@Helio: WHATEVER she was on her phone when the poor woman was trying to read a prepared statement! THIS OBVIOUSLY MEANS HEALTH CARE REFORM IS BAD. There is really no other way to look at it.
@Rhymenocerous: To be more specific, depending on your marching orders, this will mean that: a) "Obama is Hitler", or b) "the plan is just not good enough, plus nobody knows what's in it"
@lionboy: all of this is shockingly similar to how certain factions of society reacted to desegregation. it wasn't about racism, no no no, it was about their right of personal choice as to who their child would go to school with. just like how this isn't about race, or about class, but resentment over the insinuation that something is wrong about how the united states in socially and economically organized. we have so many myths about this country, and the myth that this sorry shit is actually legitimate political debate should really be squelched, because it's ill-informed, paranoid bullshit that is only going to create an end result that makes everyone worse off. save, of course, our economic overloads in the insurance companies and asshole like glenn beck who make profit by stewing up this muck in the first place. blah.
@southernbitch: And the "immigration debate" is just about making sure people obey the law. It's not that they're brown, it's just that they're illegal. Although the immigration wackos have apparently "migrated" to the healthcare hysteria.
So this well dressed good looking young white woman from Texas was saying that she is down on her luck uninsured cancer survivor who doesn't want anything to change, while reading from some notes?
Excuse me, but what's on Comedy Central?
i bet that women and 99% of the other people now squawking about tyranny and how horrible and wrong it is to place "the good of the state as a whole" over individual's civil liberties didn't say shit about it when the patriot act was passed or when the wiretapping scandal broke or any of the one million better examples of a state crushing the right of individual that happened between 2001 - 2008. i am so tired of my fellow americans. so. fucking. tired.
@southernbitch: It reeks of classism. The people spouting at these town halls about socialism are "scared" they will be perceived to be just as working class as the rest of us. The era of image and lifestyle via credit is over and they are scapegoating this healthcare plan to the detriment of the rest of us. Yes, I too am so.fucking.tired.of.it.
Wow. Rep Jackson was a rude asshole. This is slightly worse than the Repub shout outs -- only because this woman was elected and paid to represent her constituency... not to ignore them and speak on a phone. Unless we have a respectful dialogue on both sides, health care reform will be dead.
Btw, Rep Jackson's behavior was so rude, I don't think the written comments were necessary in this video. Jackson's disinterest speaks for itself.
@momof3wildkids: Um, she went on to answer the woman's question. Does this look bad? Yes, and that's why, as stated in the post, it will get so much play. But does it represent an actual break down in the so-called dialogue? Of course not.
@kneetoe: It's a pretty shitty thing to do. Let's be honest. In any sort of job which is dependent on looking like you're listening to people, this is just a stupid, stupid thing to do.
Let's say she were a marketing manager for some sort of company, meeting with a potential client. Do you seriously think she would answer her phone during that meeting? Probably not.
Rep. Jackson Lee got caught looking like an idiot, and now she'll have to pay for that lack of professionalism, just like in any other job.
@kneetoe: Exactly. WTF does answering her phone have to do with the merits of the bill--which is what this video is suggesting? If the video maker really cared about whether or not the bill would help the questioner, they would have shown the rep answer the damn question. It's just more distraction and obfuscation tactics from the real issues. I mean, on what planet does an uninsured woman with cancer actually HELP the anti-universal healthcare cause?! Only on a planet that cares more about cellphone etiquette.
@Pope John Peeps II: Let's say our marketing manager tells the client before the meeting starts that she is expecting a call from the home office with data vital to the meeting. Then, when the call comes through, she says, "Excuse me, that's the call we've been waiting for."
That's the opposite of "lack of professionalism."
@momof3wildkids: I know it would be very, very hard to read either Pareene's explanation below the video, or to read any of the news bits about this video, but as everyone else has repeatedly pointed out, Jackson was calling a health care hotline to actually get answers to people's questions when this woman decided to speak. And, no, talking on a cell phone in public, while perhaps rude, is nowhere near being "worse" than running around screaming the president is going to kill your baby to get your (vaguely sociopathic, definitely racist) way, nor is it worse than starting fist-fights with people who disagree with you. Sorry.
@allyzay: Hmm. She's always ready to jump into a health care policy discussion and argue the same two or three arguments using more or less the same verbage, and yet oddly seems to overlook repeated and overwhelming factual evidence that she is invariably arguing from an utterly and demonstrably false premise. If I didn't know better, I might begin to fancy that perhaps...
@mfnher: Yeah, except today, she's busy walking back those statements. Now she's saying she was being condescending, and apologizing for it. And this from the woman who (before her town hall) defended the astroturf protesters as being legitimately angry. I love this clip, but I wish she'd just drop the dog-shit and be blue, already.
@westvillagegirl (exiled in chicago): Too bad. I voted for her, and after seeing that clip yesterday I sent her office a letter of thanks. The Dems really need to have more confidence in the appeal of decency and being reasonable.
Today in our area the clip was a very large man who was on medicade and using lipitore for 10 YEARS. He told the president that if we have national health he can't have lipitore (ie name brand cholesterol drug). The newscasters acted like it was THE END of the world. Now I wish someone had asked him IF he dieted, exercised or knew what generic meant, etc. These soundbites will pave the road to ms palins presidency in 2012.
Edited by Queen of the Passive Aggressives at 08/12/09 2:40 PM
Queen of the Passive Aggressives was starred
Queen of the Passive Aggressives was unstarred
@Queen of the Passive Aggressives: Maybe somebody should tell him that most if not all states already have a law on the books requiring that generics be substituted for the name-brand unless the doctor specifically prescribes the name- brand drug. Not to mention that in all but the rarest of cases (e.g., a patient has a bad reaction to one of the non-active ingredients that's in the generic and not the name-brand drug), the generic works exactly the same as the nambe brand. But hey, what do actual facts have to do with the argument.
@Atilla the Bun: There is no generic for Lipitor.
Diet and exercise would probably help most people with high cholesterol, but in some cases it's inherited and there's nothing they can do about it, short of Lipitor.
@The One: Just as an aside, medications are generally cheaper in Canada. This, I believe, is due to the fact that a single-payer system run by the government can negotiate a lower price from the drug companies than individual purchasers thanks to the power of bulk purchase.
To be honest, i'm way too young to have ever looked into drug rules, and what is and isn't covered. But from what I hear from my folks, and friends in the states, that's the medicine issue.
@The One: The generic won't be available for another couple of years because of a patent dispute. The irony is that generics can be a life-saver for people without insurance since they are so much cheaper. Mr. Liptor's argument is divorced from reality in more ways than one.
@Atilla the Bun: The generic should be available in another year or two, and the generic for Zocor probably would have served Mr. Sense of Entitlement very well. And if we give Lipitor instead of the generic for another station to every Medicaid patient with high cholesterol, we'll go broke.
The difference is that some studies are showing certain other benefits of Lipitor that are not available in the other statins. Stuff like stopping plaque build-up in the arteries.
@The One: That's what all you people keep saying, about every industry but there's never anything to back it up.
Drug companies are responsible for quality-of-life enhancing drugs, to keep impotent people fucking and fat people eating egg salad. But to be honest, the only people doing important medical research are government-funded institutes, universities and hospitals.
I think the world could survive if Pfizer failed to release Viagara 2: Hard on boogaloo.
@Go Like Hell Machine: Take away the reward from the risk-reward equation, and the incentive to spend billions of dollars and years to develop drugs that may or may never come to be disappears.
@The One: the fact of the matter is, pharmaceutical companies only want to produce drugs that they can make MONEY off of. that's not innovation for the sake of curing a disease, that's innovation for the sake of PROFIT MARGINS. different level of analysis. there have been plenty of times when companies have actually stopped work on a drug or stopped making a drug because it didn't make them enough money, regardless of the actual good it did for patients. so any time i see someone making the argument that drug companies are really working towards innovation in treatment, i look at that for what that is: bullshit rhetoric.
@The One: This is a good talking point, usually provided by the drug companies, but it is not true. The companies would probably be making less money, but they'd still be making tons of money. And they'd be coming up with medications for real diseases (Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, etc.) instead of inventing new diseases (restless leg syndrome, overactive bladder, etc.) and then convincing the American public they need pills to treat them.
@Pope John Peeps II: What "you people" am I? And is never backed up?
You need to make the distinction between the basic science research that is government funded (and I've gotten into some nasty, verbally abusive battles with certain knee-jerk right-wingers while I was defending the govt-financed research) and specific drug research that is privately funded and eventually becomes the drugs we use.
Viagra may not be a lifesaving drug (although it is a popular one), but Pfizer has also come up with stuff like Zoloft (which is now available as a generic) and other meds which can truly change lives.
@southernbitch: Well, okay, then sure, and car companies don't want to make cars, and restaurants don't want to serve food.... Right. Businesses are...businesses.
Once you drill down a centimeter or two, though, you will find lots of PEOPLE within each of those types of organizations who truly love what they do. Some of them also love making money from it. But some do it purely because it's a calling.
@southernbitch: I don't recall ever claiming that the drug companies are in it for anything other than making a profit. And innovation is what makes money. Kindly point out where I made any such claim about altruism.
There are always 10-20 (or more) medications in every drug company's pipeline at any given time. Most of them will fail somewhere along the way, whether in the early development stages or in the FDA approval stages. But it's the one or two drugs that make it through the process that recoup costs not only for their own development, but for all the ones that failed along the way.
@The One: I hate to be the one to rain on this parade, but if you want a lesson in private industry producing nothing by riches for fat-cat CEOs take a look at Genta International (GNTA). They used to trade at over $1000 a share (now a penny stock), but manipulating the market with their drug pipeline has proved much more lucrative for the people involved to the point of laying off most if not all of their employees while the bloated heads of the company grow more bloated. They have an oral version of Taxotere that would be an additive to chemotherapy for nearly EVERY cancer patient, but they are too busy cashing in to do the right thing by patients. Special place in hell, my friends.
@The One: Not if those prices still give drug companies a healthy profit margin. It's not in the public or government's self-interest r to dictate prices so low companies won't make the drugs. Not to mention it is thus far a non-existent issue. Some anti-healthcare reform people were up in arms because the Obama administration apparently made a deal with drug companies that in exchange for 70B or so in cost-cutting, the administration would agree not to try to lower prices below that amount. Win/Win.
@PaisleyPajamas: Bad company. But is that a example of the entire pharmaceutical industry, or an anomaly?
There are lots of shitty drug companies out there - I remember all the penny stocks in the 80s all too well. But there's a TREMENDOUS difference between them and the reputable companies with long track records of success.
@Atilla the Bun: One thing you're leaving out in this equation is that ObamaCare is based on a promise to reduce costs, and ensuring that the drug companies make a decent profit doesn't work with that.
What is this 70B deal? Is it for real, or just frenzied rumors? Even if it were true, there's no way that can be honored *and* control costs in a government-run healthcare system.
@southernbitch: A good example of exactly what you're talking about is anti-biotics. Big Pharma coasted for a number of years without trying to develop new anti-biotics because the likely profit margin for a new drug of that nature wasn't high enough for them. Nice job, free market!
@The One: It's not an anomaly in the private sector in the development of "new" pharmaceuticals. I gave only one example, but there are probably 100s. The "reputable companies" you refer to with "long track records of success," have had the FDA in their back pockets for years. The question of a generic Lipitor that started this thread? When a "new" drug is given a patent it is the owner of that patent that gets to milk patients for 14 effing years before the patent lapses and you can buy ibuprofen/Advil without a prescription. By that time there's often something "new" and "more effective," or the number of lawsuits for undisclosed side effects has killed the market for a particular drug. It's rare that something like acetaminophen/Tylenol stands the test of time. With these facts I'd say the entire industry has only one motive: MONEY AND PROFITABILITY.
@The One: Drug companies making a profit and reducing overall healthcare costs are not mutually exclusive things. Certainly the drug companies don't seem to think so since they are lobbying FOR Obama's plan. I imagine they know better than both you and I whether Obama's plan is going to put them out of business and they apparently don't think it will. (The article also discusses the Obama/drug-makers deal for the cost-cutting; it's not just a rumor). [www.nytimes.com]
@The One: i wasn't necessarily implying that drug companies should be run by an altruistic business model. but you sidestepped a point that i think is really important: that sometimes drug companies will pull the plug on the production of a drug not because it doesn't get FDA approval and not because it doesn't fails in development but because it isn't a money-making product. for specifcs, i'll go with eflornithine. just google it. i'll go ahead and just paste in a quote, though, for anyone who doesn't feel like going too far in depth:
The production of eflornithine, the most effective drug to treat sleeping sickness, was stopped by Aventis (then Hoechst Marion Roussel) in 1995 because the drug, used to treat patients in Africa, was not making a profit.
that is a big problem to me.
@southernbitch: I'd like to offer a converse to what you just stated and offer DEPO-PROVERA as a drug that was used to CHEMICALLY CASTRATE sexual offenders in other countries around the world. What do we use it for here in the U.S.? BIRTH CONTROL. Why, you ask? Because they found a way to market it through the idea that "you don't have to take a pill everyday," and you just have to get a shot every 3 months--a shot whose side effects caused profound post partum depression in some who were administered the drug to the point of suicide. Most unfortunate was the use of this drug by "the powers that be" in patients who have an unplanned pregnancy in their medical history. That's right--they were punishing the women perceived to be whores by giving them a drug that might make them infertile or just really effing crazy to the point of offing themselves. Nice work, Big Pharma!
@PaisleyPajamas: "With these facts I'd say the entire industry has only one motive: MONEY AND PROFITABILITY."
I never said otherwise. But my point is that those motives CAN have (unintended?) altruistic consequences, and I believe that should be encouraged.
@Atilla the Bun: Interesting - thanks for the link.
I don't know if it's so much a matter of that as of the pharmaceutical industry hoping that if they make some compromises and take some losses, they will avoid the lawmakers' wrath and be spared further damage.
@southernbitch: I totally agree with you.
But where you and I may disagree (I don't know what you think should be done) is that I believe that the best way to encourage research and (hopefully) production of these drugs (like Aventis) might be to give tax breaks and/or other financial incentives to the first couple of drug companies that legitimately research, test and try to bring them to market. In other words, make it worth their while.
Well if we provide everyone with housing, food, health care, education, transportation, entertainment, and lots of other goodies, we won't have much of need to worry about high taxes or waste of taxpayer dollars, now will we, my little brainwashed capitalists.
I like how the video-makers have to make sure to show us that it's a black man singing the song, because even though their protest is completely groundless, they wouldn't want anyone to think they have ulterior motives or anything.
Also, the use of the phrase "freedom ain't free" is a dead giveaway, crypto-fascists!
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So I don't think Rep. Lee should be the new face of Democratic insensitivity. But I do think this fringe-produced complete frantic paranoia of the highest ridiculous fuckery has a way of draining people and causing the kind of inertia usually reserved for tired parents who are done listening to a whining toddler throwing a tantrum in Wal-mart. If only the birther/healthcare crazy-coup could be resolved with prune juice in a sippy cup.
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Excuse me, but what's on Comedy Central?
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Btw, Rep Jackson's behavior was so rude, I don't think the written comments were necessary in this video. Jackson's disinterest speaks for itself.
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Let's say she were a marketing manager for some sort of company, meeting with a potential client. Do you seriously think she would answer her phone during that meeting? Probably not.
Rep. Jackson Lee got caught looking like an idiot, and now she'll have to pay for that lack of professionalism, just like in any other job.
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That's the opposite of "lack of professionalism."
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Diet and exercise would probably help most people with high cholesterol, but in some cases it's inherited and there's nothing they can do about it, short of Lipitor.
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To be honest, i'm way too young to have ever looked into drug rules, and what is and isn't covered. But from what I hear from my folks, and friends in the states, that's the medicine issue.
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The difference is that some studies are showing certain other benefits of Lipitor that are not available in the other statins. Stuff like stopping plaque build-up in the arteries.
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Drug companies are responsible for quality-of-life enhancing drugs, to keep impotent people fucking and fat people eating egg salad. But to be honest, the only people doing important medical research are government-funded institutes, universities and hospitals.
I think the world could survive if Pfizer failed to release Viagara 2: Hard on boogaloo.
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You need to make the distinction between the basic science research that is government funded (and I've gotten into some nasty, verbally abusive battles with certain knee-jerk right-wingers while I was defending the govt-financed research) and specific drug research that is privately funded and eventually becomes the drugs we use.
Viagra may not be a lifesaving drug (although it is a popular one), but Pfizer has also come up with stuff like Zoloft (which is now available as a generic) and other meds which can truly change lives.
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Once you drill down a centimeter or two, though, you will find lots of PEOPLE within each of those types of organizations who truly love what they do. Some of them also love making money from it. But some do it purely because it's a calling.
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There are always 10-20 (or more) medications in every drug company's pipeline at any given time. Most of them will fail somewhere along the way, whether in the early development stages or in the FDA approval stages. But it's the one or two drugs that make it through the process that recoup costs not only for their own development, but for all the ones that failed along the way.
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There are lots of shitty drug companies out there - I remember all the penny stocks in the 80s all too well. But there's a TREMENDOUS difference between them and the reputable companies with long track records of success.
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What is this 70B deal? Is it for real, or just frenzied rumors? Even if it were true, there's no way that can be honored *and* control costs in a government-run healthcare system.
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[www.nytimes.com]
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The production of eflornithine, the most effective drug to treat sleeping sickness, was stopped by Aventis (then Hoechst Marion Roussel) in 1995 because the drug, used to treat patients in Africa, was not making a profit.
that is a big problem to me.
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I never said otherwise. But my point is that those motives CAN have (unintended?) altruistic consequences, and I believe that should be encouraged.
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I don't know if it's so much a matter of that as of the pharmaceutical industry hoping that if they make some compromises and take some losses, they will avoid the lawmakers' wrath and be spared further damage.
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But where you and I may disagree (I don't know what you think should be done) is that I believe that the best way to encourage research and (hopefully) production of these drugs (like Aventis) might be to give tax breaks and/or other financial incentives to the first couple of drug companies that legitimately research, test and try to bring them to market. In other words, make it worth their while.
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Also, the use of the phrase "freedom ain't free" is a dead giveaway, crypto-fascists!