@If_I_Had_a_Poodle: Exactly! Guns don't kill people, bulletts do. Unless of course you're in one of those old monster movies where the monster chases the gun-toting hero who is firing as he runs away, only to be cornered as his gun runs out of ammunition. And what does our hero do, class? Right, he throws said gun at the monster, braining it squarely, felling him in an instant.
Hey, a little cinematic revisionist history is called for every now and again, yes? #shooting
Why do the crazies, the postals and the stressed never engage in mad pillow-fighting or water pistol warfare? Always so serious with the permanent angry.
It really is sad the number of people in this country who seem to die only because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person. These are not our finest hours, America. #shooting
@Spirit Fingers: They'll say something along the lines of "I needs me mah guns to protect the youngins against al quedas who are illegally immigrating to an America that I no longer recognize." #shooting
@misslinda: They'll say that if a law-abiding citizen who'd been there was legally able to carry a concealed weapon, the shooter wouldn't have been able to hit so many people. Because I'm *sure* said citizen would also have super great aim and would in no way be a risk to innocent bystanders. Nope, not at all. #shooting
@misslinda: Yah, I agree with katekate, they recognize this America, it's the one they created after all.
Also, what the hell happens when we all have guns to stop other people with guns who think they can take advantage of you because you don't have a gun, but you do, so you shoot them, they shoot you, and then Canada can just "come on down", laugh at us because we're stupendous idiots...trapped in our caves with our guns and canned spam, ready to shoot any damnable thing that moves, until we de-evolutionize ourselves and have to learn how to walk and talk again. "Me have fire stick. Me want meat. Me use fire stick take meat. Where me get shoes?"
This, apparently, is where we're headed. #shooting
@formergr: Law-abiding citizens are able to get carry permits. And the funny thing is, none of those people ever happen to be at the scene when shit like this happens. They are probably the least reliable motherfuckers on the planet when it comes to saving mall-goers' asses. #shooting
@Spirit Fingers: You know they'll start saying that "if someone on the scene had had a gun"...and start demanding legislation that requires all salesclerks be armed with AK-47s. #shooting
@Spirit Fingers: But we're not all gonna have guns. IMO only an idiot would get a gun to protect themselves because by getting one, you've just introduced a very dangerous weapon into your home or on your body that was not there before. In my +20 years in NYC, I have never once ever felt like I needed a gun. I think the closest I've come to seeing someone use a weapon on the streets was the carrot peeler guy on Union Square (may he rest in peace). It's really no wonder Canada laughs in our general direction. #shooting
@SarahHeartburn: Yep, that's exactly what I mean. Guns, guns, guns for everyone now! Fucking lunacy.
@misslinda: Yes, I agree. Just seems like without even trying we'll be back in the wild west or the primordial sludge where rational thinking goes completely out the window and all that's left is kill or be killed due to constant fear mongering and the ease of which any absolute psychopath or mother of two can procure a loaded weapon. "Milk, bread, eggs, Glock 9mm, cheese, Oreos for Billy...." #shooting
@Spirit Fingers: The number of guns is beside the point. It's a Second Amendment issue: the second most important thing the Constitution has to say and the only way, as the authors saw it, to ensure free speech against the tendency of governments to outlaw it. In their view, every citizen (with all its limitations at that time) should have arms and know how to use them. They also do not define what 'arms' are. They could be nuclear weapons as far as I can tell from reading Federalists Papers (28, 29, 46, etc.). The thinking seems to be that each citizen maintaining liberty for himself ensures liberty for all. A US without guns is not the US. (I don't own a gun or want to, which is about as anti-American as I get—you may disagree). #shooting
Not to take away from an important debate, but I believe there have been some very, very late nights when those exact words have crossed my lips. #shooting
@pilf: I don't easily second-guess the Founding Padres, since they have a pretty good track record coming up with a constitution that lasted longer than any other, but the Second Amendment seems to me most obviously motivated by a specific historical context.
They had just declared war against Britain at the time--of COURSE they'd sneak in there something about the God-given right of ordinary Americans to bear arms.
Am not a constitutional scholar, and you seem to be more schooled than I am on these matters. Somehow, I agree that, barring some catastrophic reversal of fortunes, guns will never, ever be outlawed in the US--as a matter of principle. It hasn't much to do with logic at this point, but more with tradition and national character. #shooting
Do you think the Republicans are starting to get that their policies over the last eight years (both militarily and economically) have a lot to do with why people are suddenly going nuts and shooting people?
Or have they somehow convinced themselves that this is all the fault of Kenya? #shooting
@drunkexpatwriter: in reality, I would say it's a bit of column A and a bit of column B. Not because Kenya is inherently evil, but because the crazy/dumb people think it's evil. And that it's out to get them, specifically, and their unborn christian babies.
I'm not making light of this incident, and we really have nothing to go on as of yet, but like someone said down-thread, general civil unrest does seem right around the corner and it doesn't help the situation that national leaders, LEADERS, are saying spurious shit about what's really going on and thereby frightening people unnecessarily. #shooting
@drunkexpatwriter: Right now, Michelle Malkin is googling "Portland Oregon + shooting + Muslim." If nothing comes up, she won't be talking about it. #shooting
The really horrible thing is... this is just the very beginning. Lots of immature and/or stressed and postal people with guns out there. Next stop: civil unrest. #shooting
@Uncle_Billy_Slumming: Yeah, I'm kind of nervous about where this is headed. Sadly, I find it really hard to reason with people about guns--it seems their entire argument is 'constitution constitution constitution constitution, etc...' #shooting
@Colander: I'm a staunch pro-choice, pro-obama, pro-health care, pro-gov't option Dem. I'm also pro guns. I don't own one (though I have) because it's illegal here in NYC and also I don't need one. However, there is simply no way to get rid of them and quite frankly no need. These things happen in England, in France, in Germany where guns are severely restricted. It is true that it is much easier to get a gun as a criminal than legally (quicker anyway).
I'm not interested in debating it, really, just adding my two cents.
I will say this, the NRA is a terrible organization that does more harm than good and is not interested in reasonable responsible ownership. I will never be a member.
Oh, and 'constitution, constitution, constitution'. #shooting
@BaconCat: wow, and I thought I was the only one. I'm with you regarding guns, but they should be a little more restricted than they are. Who outside of the military needs an automatic weapon??? Or a handgun for that matter. As for the other countries you mention, yes, they have shooting incidents, but I'm pretty sure if you looked at the numbers it would be way below what happens here. #shooting
@raincoaster: No, of course, I cannot. But they happen. So let me pose a 2 part question to you:
1. what would happen if all guns were outlawed in the US?
2. do you want to live in a country like that?
@QueenCeleste: I have no problem with restricting some types of guns. What types and how much restriction is an arbitrary line not worth hashing out on a post so lets just say restrictions are certainly OK. #shooting
@BaconCat: I can answer question No. 2: I do (France), and I love it. I'm not one to be quiet when a driver ignores the crosswalk that I am IN, or people won't move to let me off the Metro, etc. (Which happen far less frequently than when I was in NYC.) Names are called, shoulders are bumped (hard). Here I know that maybe they'll want to fight (they haven't, yet) and at the worst they might have a knife. But it never enters my consciousness that I'm going to be blown away, as it did in NYC. #shooting
@BaconCat: I have often wondered why we can't just clamp down on the manufacture and importation of firearms. Obviously waiting periods and restrictions on certain types of weapons have been a mixed bag in terms of their success, but if we could limit the absolute number of guns in the country, without limiting the individual's right to own one (ie, keep it legal but make it much harder/more expensive to get ahold of one)... I assume there must be something wrong with my plan, since it's not being implemented, but damned if I can figure out what it is. #shooting
@romulus: I don't think you can say that waiting periods and weapon restrictions have been a mixed bag when you still have gun shows that essentially circumvent all of these restrictions.
I, for one, would just be happy if we enforced the damn laws already on the books without any exceptions. #shooting
@SaraRueful: funny, the only times i've ever been assaulted in my life were on the streets of Covent Garden, London and on the Paris Metro and I live in NYC. Go figure.
Also, look up your own laws, hunting rifles abound in France, especially in the Aveyron, which I frequently visit. And despite your own tightening of gun laws in 1995, black market guns and the associated crimes have been steadily increasing in the bad arondissments. #shooting
@raincoaster: one more thing:
If one ignores Washington DC and the US cities that are larger than
Canadian cities, the murder rates in the US are not much higher than
Canadian homicide rates. What do those cities have in common? Really restrictive gun laws. NYC has a zero firearms policy and yet firearm murders abound. Our current gun policy does not work. I won't argue about training or class restrictions, I have no problem with that.
And I am far more frightened of a state where only the police have guns than being shot by a whacko who busts into my office armed to the teeth. #shooting
@BaconCat: So, if the issue isn't guns, is it Americans? Maybe you should control them instead, then?
By the way, your assertions are incorrect. The annual murder rate for King County, Washington, for instance (ie Greater Seattle) is larger than the murder rate for Canada, just to give you one example. #shooting
@raincoaster: Specifically, the "death by gunshot" rate. I suppose the deaths from high stickings would be comparable in each country, but I don't have any stats about that, so I will refrain from making such assertions unconditionally.
By the way, we also appear to be better at math than you people. #shooting
And when Scott Roeder kills a doctor, it's not because of his "extremist Christian beliefs," it's because he's either extremely pro-life or because he's a "concerned citizen." Balls. #nidalmalikhasan
I wish the network news dinks would really assert the fact the biggest enemy we face in the U.S. are loons inside of the U.S.
Anti-Obama folks hoarding guns and ammo and showing up at rallies with assault rifles? Now this?
Also, everything points to this guy being a known problem who was shuffled around by his supervisors. When he should have been kicked out of the military to begin with.
It's seems like only yesterday (actually, it was Monday) that Virginia Foxx R-NC was telling me that I had less to fear from Islamic terrorists than from the Democrats' healthcare bill. At this point in the week, is that still an acceptable statement? Perhaps she'd feel differently if Ft. Hood were in her district. Or if she had a soul.
I'm not sure why this has to be something that joins the long list of things liberals and conservatives fight over. It sucks when people kill for religion. It sucks when people kill because they can't get laid. It sucks when people kill because they get picked on at school. It sucks when people kill because they feel socially ostracized. It sucks when people kill so they can get their picture on the news. It sucks when people kill because their boss made them work overtime. It sucks when people kill because a TV host told them the government was going to take away their guns. It sucks when people kill because the IRS is unconstitutional blah blah fucking blah.
To me, I'm bored senseless by the "why" of the nihilistic disregard for human life displayed by all these fuckers, the absolute narcissism of thinking your "reasons" trump anyone else's right to continue living. Fuck no.
Muhammad told you to kill your fellow soldiers? Fuck him. Jesus wanted you to invade a country and take out a few hundred thousand civilians? Fuck him. Lord Krishna order you to torch that mosque and take back your temple? Fuck him and fuck your temple. Fuck your mosque, your church, your synagogue, your scripture, your holy places and your heritage. Fuck your cause.
Because if this is the service your God asks of you, your God is an asshole.
@Mediahohoho: Yours is an entertaining rant, but devoid of any legit intellectual value. Empty calories, like gulping down a soda that feels satisfying in the moment but has zero nutritional value. You're bulldozing over the complex meaning and purpose of religious affiliation with a storm of F words. I'm not sure how this makes us smarter, not Fox News-dumber, but whatever. #nidalmalikhasan
@snugbug: "You're bulldozing over the complex meaning and purpose of religious affiliation with a storm of F words."
That's not at all what she's doing. If killing isn't a service your god asks of you then your god isn't an asshole!
But, arguably, it's not your god but you whose the asshole in that equation, right? So god's off the hook! Unless even the good gods are as much a projection of their believers as the bad ones--something that does go toward understanding the complexities of religious affiliation, but not one that the religiously affiliated would appreciate. Too bad. #nidalmalikhasan
@Mediahohoho: I don't think your rant is "devoid of any legit intellectual value". It is making a great point, of being tired of hearing about the Whys of murder, as if there is a philosophical/religious excuse for randomly killing strangers/coworkers/passersby/etc. No need for a sympathetic psychological/sociological history of major religions to make the point. Maybe part of the problem is that organized religion gets far too much sympathy. #nidalmalikhasan
@Bulkington: Very good. Exactly. God is never the problem; man/womankind is. We invented God and then proceeded to put words into his mouth. I realize this last statement doesn't make much logical sense--you need to read it as a koan of some sort. I specialize in koans, you see. #nidalmalikhasan
@Bulkington: What the fuck are you people even talking about? Who are you saying this to? It astounds me that what amounts to little more than a quasi-poem scrawled in the margins of a Psychopathic Records notebook could be called a "comment of the century." So you've demonstrated that you can be despondent about shit. Awesome. Let's pat ourselves on the back some more. We've done a great job here.
It's bullshit like this that makes embarrassed to be an atheist, sometimes. But then, there are short-sighted nitwits in every group that reflect badly on the whole, amirite?
Anyway, the serious point to make is, it's monumentally stupid to boil down something like this to simple religion. It's never that simple. The foulest thing about this whole mess is that no one will learn from it. Islamic nationalism / militarism has little to nothing to do with Islam, and everything to do with elements of regional cultures violently resisting western encroachment. The idea of a global network of religious extremist only kind of came into reality after 9/11, when the Bush Administration became the proverbial bull in the china shop of the Middle East. The seeds of it were sewn long before that, in Cold War politicking and CIA meddling, in the side effects of American economic imperialism. This is all international politics.
"Al Qaeda" didn't spring from whole cloth. They were a locally-focused group who, after failing as a popular movement (fancy that, a bunch of devout muslims not deciding democratically to submit to ultraconservatives!) decided they'd use violence against their regional states, and ultimately came to the (probably accurate) conclusion that they would never come to power with Western nations involved in local events.
But the point is, it's kind of ridiculous and typical of lazy atheists to think that a person just picks up a holy book and becomes a violent warrior of faith. Yes, there is history behind it. Yes, there is sociology behind it. There's got to be an explanation why there are some muslims who never murder anyone and some who have the desire to murder everyone. It's grotesque and dishonest to paint them with the same brush.
What if we find out that this particular murderer was not part of a terrorist cell, but acted on his own spontaneously? It would make more sense to assume that there was something about his job, something about the war that pushed him irrevocably to the edge. But that's too difficult to think about, isn't it? Best to just sever that Gordian Knot. What's the worst that can happen? Yeah, fuck this nebulously defined group of astounding breadth. Punk rock!
@snugbug: @John Thompson: You both pretty much missed the point of everything I was saying. But you seem pretty satisfied with yourselves so enjoy. #nidalmalikhasan
@Mediahohoho: Oh no, I didn't miss it. You're angered by religiously inspired violence. We (well, at least I) was just reacting to the fact that you seem to have condemned entire religions & their base on account of the actions of a handful of cuckoo fringe lunatics that identified themselves as followers. Fair? Also, I'm never satisfied. Never, ever. Gimme more! #nidalmalikhasan
@snugbug: I really don't think that Mediahohoho condemned entire groups of religious people, only the mouthpieces of religion (fuck Muhammad, fuck Jesus, fuck Vishnu, not fuck Muslims, fuck Christians, fuck Hindus), and more importantly, s/he put it in the form of a conditional: IF your god tells you to kill, then fuck your god. S/he never said that "obviously the bible/koran/rig veda/norse sagas/dianetics led xyz to kill a bunch of people" #nidalmalikhasan
@snugbug: No, it was more in the line of stating my opinion that neither religion nor any of the other aforementioned reasons ascribed to mass murderers matter, are cogent or need to be dwelt upon by as serious elements of thoughtful discourse. I thought it was obvious.
For the record, my problem with religions has everything to do with their hijackers, the fundamentalists, who use these dogmas for their own selfish, narcissistic purposes. I think most people in all religions couldn't really give a shit, go through the motions and are embarrassed by their co-religionists' misuse of their various dogmas.
And I reiterate my opinion that anyone who undertakes the murder of unsuspecting, unarmed people really doesn't have an excuse grounded in any wothwhile philosophical or metaphysical paradigm because it is, by definition, an act of insanity. To me, Charles Whitman, Tim McVeigh and this prick have nothing to say to me because they're all just nuts.
But again, I'm not here to harsh on anyone who gets off on feeling intellectually superior to me. It's the least I can do, right? #nidalmalikhasan
11/10/09
Because us white folk never do anything bad ever. #shooting
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
Hey, a little cinematic revisionist history is called for every now and again, yes? #shooting
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
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11/11/09
11/10/09
It really is sad the number of people in this country who seem to die only because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person. These are not our finest hours, America. #shooting
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
Also, what the hell happens when we all have guns to stop other people with guns who think they can take advantage of you because you don't have a gun, but you do, so you shoot them, they shoot you, and then Canada can just "come on down", laugh at us because we're stupendous idiots...trapped in our caves with our guns and canned spam, ready to shoot any damnable thing that moves, until we de-evolutionize ourselves and have to learn how to walk and talk again. "Me have fire stick. Me want meat. Me use fire stick take meat. Where me get shoes?"
This, apparently, is where we're headed. #shooting
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
@misslinda: Yes, I agree. Just seems like without even trying we'll be back in the wild west or the primordial sludge where rational thinking goes completely out the window and all that's left is kill or be killed due to constant fear mongering and the ease of which any absolute psychopath or mother of two can procure a loaded weapon. "Milk, bread, eggs, Glock 9mm, cheese, Oreos for Billy...." #shooting
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
Not to take away from an important debate, but I believe there have been some very, very late nights when those exact words have crossed my lips. #shooting
11/10/09
They had just declared war against Britain at the time--of COURSE they'd sneak in there something about the God-given right of ordinary Americans to bear arms.
Am not a constitutional scholar, and you seem to be more schooled than I am on these matters. Somehow, I agree that, barring some catastrophic reversal of fortunes, guns will never, ever be outlawed in the US--as a matter of principle. It hasn't much to do with logic at this point, but more with tradition and national character. #shooting
11/10/09
Or have they somehow convinced themselves that this is all the fault of Kenya? #shooting
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
I'm not making light of this incident, and we really have nothing to go on as of yet, but like someone said down-thread, general civil unrest does seem right around the corner and it doesn't help the situation that national leaders, LEADERS, are saying spurious shit about what's really going on and thereby frightening people unnecessarily. #shooting
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
11/10/09
I'm not interested in debating it, really, just adding my two cents.
I will say this, the NRA is a terrible organization that does more harm than good and is not interested in reasonable responsible ownership. I will never be a member.
Oh, and 'constitution, constitution, constitution'. #shooting
11/10/09
11/10/09
Didn't think so. #shooting
11/10/09
1. what would happen if all guns were outlawed in the US?
2. do you want to live in a country like that?
@QueenCeleste: I have no problem with restricting some types of guns. What types and how much restriction is an arbitrary line not worth hashing out on a post so lets just say restrictions are certainly OK. #shooting
11/10/09
11/10/09
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11/10/09
2) I already do. #shooting
11/10/09
11/10/09
I, for one, would just be happy if we enforced the damn laws already on the books without any exceptions. #shooting
11/11/09
11/11/09
Also, look up your own laws, hunting rifles abound in France, especially in the Aveyron, which I frequently visit. And despite your own tightening of gun laws in 1995, black market guns and the associated crimes have been steadily increasing in the bad arondissments. #shooting
11/11/09
If one ignores Washington DC and the US cities that are larger than
Canadian cities, the murder rates in the US are not much higher than
Canadian homicide rates. What do those cities have in common? Really restrictive gun laws. NYC has a zero firearms policy and yet firearm murders abound. Our current gun policy does not work. I won't argue about training or class restrictions, I have no problem with that.
And I am far more frightened of a state where only the police have guns than being shot by a whacko who busts into my office armed to the teeth. #shooting
11/11/09
By the way, your assertions are incorrect. The annual murder rate for King County, Washington, for instance (ie Greater Seattle) is larger than the murder rate for Canada, just to give you one example. #shooting
11/11/09
By the way, we also appear to be better at math than you people. #shooting
11/07/09
11/07/09
Anti-Obama folks hoarding guns and ammo and showing up at rallies with assault rifles? Now this?
Also, everything points to this guy being a known problem who was shuffled around by his supervisors. When he should have been kicked out of the military to begin with.
Good lord. What a mess. #nidalmalikhasan
11/07/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
To me, I'm bored senseless by the "why" of the nihilistic disregard for human life displayed by all these fuckers, the absolute narcissism of thinking your "reasons" trump anyone else's right to continue living. Fuck no.
Muhammad told you to kill your fellow soldiers? Fuck him. Jesus wanted you to invade a country and take out a few hundred thousand civilians? Fuck him. Lord Krishna order you to torch that mosque and take back your temple? Fuck him and fuck your temple. Fuck your mosque, your church, your synagogue, your scripture, your holy places and your heritage. Fuck your cause.
Because if this is the service your God asks of you, your God is an asshole.
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
That's not at all what she's doing. If killing isn't a service your god asks of you then your god isn't an asshole!
But, arguably, it's not your god but you whose the asshole in that equation, right? So god's off the hook! Unless even the good gods are as much a projection of their believers as the bad ones--something that does go toward understanding the complexities of religious affiliation, but not one that the religiously affiliated would appreciate. Too bad. #nidalmalikhasan
11/06/09
11/06/09
And I concur. #nidalmalikhasan
11/06/09
Hmmmm....how about man made god long ago out of ignorance and fear?? #nidalmalikhasan
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
It's bullshit like this that makes embarrassed to be an atheist, sometimes. But then, there are short-sighted nitwits in every group that reflect badly on the whole, amirite?
Anyway, the serious point to make is, it's monumentally stupid to boil down something like this to simple religion. It's never that simple. The foulest thing about this whole mess is that no one will learn from it. Islamic nationalism / militarism has little to nothing to do with Islam, and everything to do with elements of regional cultures violently resisting western encroachment. The idea of a global network of religious extremist only kind of came into reality after 9/11, when the Bush Administration became the proverbial bull in the china shop of the Middle East. The seeds of it were sewn long before that, in Cold War politicking and CIA meddling, in the side effects of American economic imperialism. This is all international politics.
"Al Qaeda" didn't spring from whole cloth. They were a locally-focused group who, after failing as a popular movement (fancy that, a bunch of devout muslims not deciding democratically to submit to ultraconservatives!) decided they'd use violence against their regional states, and ultimately came to the (probably accurate) conclusion that they would never come to power with Western nations involved in local events.
But the point is, it's kind of ridiculous and typical of lazy atheists to think that a person just picks up a holy book and becomes a violent warrior of faith. Yes, there is history behind it. Yes, there is sociology behind it. There's got to be an explanation why there are some muslims who never murder anyone and some who have the desire to murder everyone. It's grotesque and dishonest to paint them with the same brush.
What if we find out that this particular murderer was not part of a terrorist cell, but acted on his own spontaneously? It would make more sense to assume that there was something about his job, something about the war that pushed him irrevocably to the edge. But that's too difficult to think about, isn't it? Best to just sever that Gordian Knot. What's the worst that can happen? Yeah, fuck this nebulously defined group of astounding breadth. Punk rock!
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
For the record, my problem with religions has everything to do with their hijackers, the fundamentalists, who use these dogmas for their own selfish, narcissistic purposes. I think most people in all religions couldn't really give a shit, go through the motions and are embarrassed by their co-religionists' misuse of their various dogmas.
And I reiterate my opinion that anyone who undertakes the murder of unsuspecting, unarmed people really doesn't have an excuse grounded in any wothwhile philosophical or metaphysical paradigm because it is, by definition, an act of insanity. To me, Charles Whitman, Tim McVeigh and this prick have nothing to say to me because they're all just nuts.
But again, I'm not here to harsh on anyone who gets off on feeling intellectually superior to me. It's the least I can do, right? #nidalmalikhasan
11/06/09
11/09/09