Gawker 
Enter your username and password.
-
posts about #snits more → 
Update: Writer Used a Researcher to Invent an Obama Wikipedia Scandal
New York, 9:40 AM
Wed Nov 25
49 posts in the last 24 hours
Tip Your Editors:
tips@gawker.com
Tipline: 646-214-8138
Editor-in-Chief:
Gabriel Snyder | Email
West Coast Editor:
Richard Rushfield | Email
Contributing Editors:
Valleywag:
Ryan Tate | Email
Media:
Hamilton Nolan | Email
Politics:
Alex Pareene | Email
Investigations:
John Cook | Email
Entertainment:
Brian Moylan | Email
Nights:
Adrian Chen | Email
Azaria Jagger | Email
Ravi Somaiya | Email
Weekends:
Foster Kamer | Email
Video Editor:
Richard Blakeley | Email
| posts about #snits more → |
Update: Writer Used a Researcher to Invent an Obama Wikipedia Scandal |
Original material is licensed under a Creative Commons License permitting non-commercial sharing with attribution.
03/11/09
03/12/09
Heh!
03/11/09
[drorly.blogspot.com]
03/11/09
Do a little research on the good doctor Taitz. Outside the die-hard birfer crowd, she's a laughingstock.
03/12/09
I did Salena. That was the point of my comment.
03/10/09
Aaron, if you or your researcher is reading this (and I know you are): if THAT is your idea of journalism, and if "investigative journalists engage in exactly this kind of testing," then the profession is fucked, and us journalists may as well work at Starbucks.
03/10/09
My point? (Yes, I have one!) Is that different states have different documentation. And don't mock your loved ones b.c., that's just rude.
03/10/09
[latimesblogs.latimes.com]
settle the question? Have you seen more documentation for other presidential candidates? Since the fact of Obama's mother's citizenship is enough to settle the question of whether the man is himself eligible to be president (it is...it really is).
And please, this is more or less the same information that's on my birth certificate. Kindly enlighten me about what a "long form" birth certificate offers that this doesn't.
I'll say this: it's certainly resolved to my satisfaction. Much, much more, for instance, than George W. Bush's imaginary National Guard Vietnam War draft dodge was. And that was important because that particular draft dodger had no problem sending 4,000+ Americans to die in an unjust war.
I'm much more concerned with what Obama is doing now than whether the fevered imaginations of a bunch of conspiracy nuts, whose skepticism can never be answered, are satisfied about a phony, made up issue.
03/10/09
My questions, I think, come out of a little fear -- fear that they will begin to uncover some serious nastiness, which, on top of what's happening with the economy, could deal a huge blow to the national psyche. Big crisis with strong, trustworthy leaders -- not the end of the world. Big crisis with fallen heros at the helm -- serious badness.
03/10/09
hoho, see this for differences between short and long forms (you posted the short form):
[en.wikipedia.org]
The following looks like a reasonable summary of my questions:
citizensagainstproobamamediabi...
.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/colb-vs-long-form-birth-certificate/">[citizensagainstproobamamediabi....wordpress.com]It hits the big reason this is so troubling (to me at least): The ease with which he could dismiss all this garbage, but hasn't.
From this, it looks like Obama really shouldn't even need to approve a release of the original:
""There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama's official birth certificate," said Chiyome Fukino. "State law prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.""
[hotair.com]
A tangible interest? The state of Hawaii does not consider those who requested it, for the purpose of establishing the citizenship of a president, as having a tangible interest?
The first place to look when debunking is Snopes.com, right?
[www.snopes.com]
Notice that they simply state that Obama was born in HI. Also notice that they post the same "short" document that you posted previously.
I was horrified by the knee-jerks of some others above. This puts them about the same level as the right wing loonies, or worse, in my opinion. Thanks for engaging and discussing this intelligently.
03/11/09
03/11/09
Not fair, Mori. I've tried to address the less emotional/more considered responses. Vague, sure, but bizarre? I just don't know what will be happening in coming months. Believe it or not, but I would be much happier if it turned out Obama was everything he's billed as. I'm just not getting that feeling. I railed against the Bushies and I'm exploring whether or not there is value in supporting the new admistration. Maybe that makes me a centrist wingnut? Obama is not a religion. If he and his crowd are as good as his mindless worshipers think they are, great. Honestly. You sound pretty caught up in the whole "this party is better than that party" thing, so we probably don't have much to talk about.
03/11/09
"The short form typically includes the child's name, date of birth, sex, and place of birth, although some also include the names of the child's parents. When the certification does include the names of the parents, it can be used in lieu of a long form birth certificate in almost all circumstances."
The photocopy of Obama's birth certificate that he's released (see here: [latimesblogs.latimes.com]) has the names of both of his parents on it.
Also, that that same birth certificate linked above also says this at the bottom: "This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding."
So according to both those standards, this so-called "short" certificate is, in fact, the legal documentation of his citizenship.
What wikipedia (a source I don't view as authoritative in the first place, btw) calls a "long birth certificate" is apparently a photocopy of the original papers the doctors signed in the hospital that day. Who the fuck ever heard of presenting papers like that to document their ID? It wouldn't surprise me if the hospital no longer retained such photocopy records after all these years.
I was born the same year as Obama, in Maryland, and my birth certificate is card that has less info on it than the one Obama has already released publicly. I've used it to get my SS card, driver's license and passport over the years. Nobody ever told me it wasn't my "official" certificate.
The problem here, as others have stated, is that once he's released the legal documentation, the nuts just say, "we don't think that's good enough for us ... please release photocpies and detailed hospital records." And the logical answer to that is: Fuck you. Why should he do that? There's no satisfying you people. What will you be demanding next? Photographs of the infant Obama emerging from his mother's womb?
03/11/09
"This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding."
I don't read this as "fact of birth in a certain location or under certain circumstances," I read it as this is a legal certification of a birth, period.
" it can be used in lieu of a long form birth certificate in almost all circumstances"
I would suggest that this might be one of the few exceptional circumstances (don't know if they define this themselves).
"It wouldn't surprise me if the hospital no longer retained such photocopy records after all these years."
But the hospital administration has attested that they've seen the original long document.
"Nobody ever told me it wasn't my "official" certificate."
The short ones apparently serve in many capacities, agreed.
"The problem here, as others have stated, is that once he's released the legal documentation, the nuts just say, "we don't think that's good enough for us"
But we're not facing the ridiculous step, we're facing the very simple step of looking at the document which could put 99% of the nutjobs to sleep. And they refuse to produce that document. If the ultimate document is produced, there's also the obvious "it's forged." But I think it's only at that point that it's reasonable to back off.
...and then we'e still left with the question of his mother's impossible flight schedule, and the hard-to-swallow necessity that they even let her fly in her advanced state.
Yes, angels & pinheads, but I think it's worth the excercise.
03/11/09
03/12/09
{sigh}
"I have said nothing about which party I belong to."
Strawman. No one said you did.
"You keep putting forward arguments that have been refuted over and over again"
Same argument, from different angles. Refuted? So what? Any jackass can refute anything; refutation is an activity, not a proof.
"Keep an open mind."
Abso-rootin-tootely.
"This is the same technique used by creationists, Holocaust deniers..."
As I was typing it did occur to me that it sounded exactly like the people you describe, but upon reflection I realized that it was only because those people have hijacked the sound and feel of genuine rhetoric.
"You can't even explain what is the importance of this without moving into vague apocalyptic threats like "fire and brimstone." "
The intent was to sear into brains the possibility that we are facing even an even more corrupt bunch than the previous one. It seems to have made an impression on even you, so it was at least mildly successful. I do regret using "fear" as motivator, but not too much considering the use to which I'm trying to put it.
"You have nothing to talk about."
It's clear that your issue is with me, not with the argument itself. Maybe my fault, but who cares... you're offensive. Go now and come back again as someone who is not.
03/10/09
If you think we've been delivered from evil, into the hands of the right and the true, you are in for some serious shocks in the coming weeks, months, and years. Goodbye frying pan, hello fire and brimstone, possibly. Let's open our minds a little to the possibility? Yes?
03/10/09
03/10/09
hoho: I'm not attacking you personally. Not attacking at all. I am a little taken aback by the unwillingness of others to continue to question their leadership. O is not sacred. If he comes through the guantlet of inquiry unscathed, so much the better. But to try to shut down inquiry? Come on.
You might not consider any questions of the citizenship valid at this point. I'm sure you've been following the story more closely than I have, because as I mentioned above, I rejected the whole thing up until now due to the seemingly obvious agendas of those that were pushing it. When I saw that the question of citizenship still hadn't been contained, at this late date, I became a lot more interested. A quick look revealed two specific items that haven't been resolved -- the flight and the refusal to release the full birth certificate. It could very well be that the law prevents even individuals from releasing their own information... I just don't know.
Please keep your mind truly open.
03/10/09
But I'm very skeptical about leadership. If he continues his acceptance of Bush's domestic spying and torture policies, I'll turn on him--and the Democratic Party--faster than you can say Prescott Bush was a Nazi financier.
But this? It never has been a legitimate issue after his campaign released his birth certificate.
03/10/09
(I'm at a different computer, my image-posting code is forgotten).
[thebruceblog.wordpress.com]
Between that and the copy of his birth certificate that he's already provided, how much more evidence do people need? A videotape of the actual birth with hula dancers?
03/11/09
It really would have been enough for me if he had just shown us the original or if the HI Supreme court hadn't shot down the request to see it. This is not a private person and I don't think elected officials should be protected with the same privacy rights.
03/11/09
[www.factcheck.org]
I think this is a red herring in the grand political scheme of things- there are more critical issues we need to address now with this presidency and the last. If they keep this on topic then the crimes of the last eight years seem to magically disappear- or so they are hoping.
The RNC prop up Alan Keyes to do their bidding so they can deny racism, but at the end of the day- evidence proves Obama is more of a native born American than McCain.
03/12/09
I know.. .we should have many more priorities than we do currently. Previous administration in jail should be one of them.
03/10/09
Christianity, survivalism, nutty conspiracy theories, racism--all for perusal on WorldNetDaily. And Chuck Norris has a lot to answer for.
03/10/09
03/10/09
03/10/09
03/10/09
""if there is not an issue why toss up details about time spent in Kenya? Barack tells us his mother spent 72 hours immediately prior to his birth, in Kenya, and then returned to have him.
Now I have done reasearch and am a bit of an aviation buff. I went back to see just what aircraft were available and when, in order to fly someone to Kenya, in 1961, and then back again within 3 days. Not even going over the fact that today and even MORE SO in the past - a 9 months pregnant woman would almost certainly be denied the ability to fly, especially a long flight, probably originating in Seattle (as the hints and records seem to imply), over the Pacific Ocean.
The DC8 or Boeing 707 was operational for its first flights in late 1958. Few companies flew the 4 engine jet through 1959 - and only the most profitable, highly travelled routes would be using this ULTRA expensive aircraft. No routes to any African country were considered high-traffic routes, with only a London - Johannesburg route being a moderate traffic route.
The flight WITH the jet would have taken, from Seattle, approximately 24 hours to complete, with refueling and passenger changes. But what is more likely is that Obama's mother would have taken a 4 engine propeller plane - like the Pan Am Super Constellation - overseas - requiring as much as 32 hours to complete with stopovers, refueling, and passenger changes.
There is NO WAY A.) that she was allowed to fly at her stage of pregnancy, and B.) that she flew to Kenya, stayed about 6 hours, and then hopped on the plane back to Seattle, and then gave birth.
There is a reason for all of this - and for the MSM not even to look into it is a serious, and to me deliberate, oversight."
From the texasdarling blog"
[www.freerepublic.com]
03/10/09
03/10/09
True, but point out the dumbness, else dumb thyself.
From Honolulu Advertiser:
"While most Obama residences can be traced, the hospital where he was born is difficult to document. The desire of historians to pinpoint where Obama's life began has crashed head-on with the modern American propensity toward confidentiality. The federal Health Information Privacy Act of 1999 - a law passed to protect medical records from public scrutiny - prevents hospitals from confirming births, administrators contend.
"We don't have plans to do anything," said Kapiolani Medical Center spokeswoman, Claire Tong, when asked how the center plans to commemorate the soon-to-be 44th U.S. president, who, according to Obama's family and other sources, was born at that hospital on Aug. 4, 1961.
"We can't confirm or deny it - even though all the information out there says he was born at Kapiolani Hospital. And that's because of the HIPA law."
Tong acknowledged that the center has received daily inquiries from news agencies far and wide asking for confirmation of Obama's birthplace. Much as she wishes she could do it, Tong said it's not possible.
"Our hands are tied," she said."
[www.honoluluadvertiser.com]
So this is the latest?
"On October 17, 2008, Martin filed a lawsuit against the state of Hawaii calling for the public release of Barack Obama's birth certificate and other vital records. To counter rumors that Obama is not a natural-born citizen of the United States, the Obama campaign previously posted an image of his short-form birth certificate online.[5][6] Martin's lawsuit sought a copy of Sen. Obama's long-form birth certificate.[7] On October 22, 2008 the Hawaii Supreme Court denied Petition 29414 calling for the release of Obama's vital records."
[en.wikipedia.org])
So why can't/won't Obama authorize the release of the long certificate?
03/10/09
Note that the info you posted comes from a "texasdarling blog." Authoritative!
Striking how the last bit almost exactly mirrors questions about Palin's extensive, dangerous flying after breaking water with Trig. Actually uncanny how much right-wingers often reflexively blurt accusations that mirror their own machinations and motives, by accusing the "left" of every devious thing they themselves are up to.
03/10/09
03/10/09
Look, folks, it's not 2003. You, uh, lost the election. Get a new platform and until then STFU. Please. Sir.
03/10/09
03/10/09
I can point you to lots of stupid things that people post on the internet that gullible people believe if you want to start going around wasting your time on that stuff. I highly recommend starting with 9/11 Truthers or people who believe in the Illuminati for maximum lulz.
03/10/09
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
As no one has ever disputed whether Obama's mother is a U.S. citizen who lived at least 5 years in the U.S.
But again, this is about racism; this question would never arise about a white candidate of either party.
03/10/09
03/10/09
You need a birth certificate to get a passport.
It's funny.
03/10/09
(And by the way, I meant to write that HIPA is a perfectly legitimate reason to not release someone's birth certificate. Thank fucking Christ for anyone concerned about identity theft.)
03/10/09
Has all this been resolved to the satisfaction of reasonable, skeptical people? For instance do you know of a source that covers both sides of the nationality "issue" objectively? The flight business bothers me, as does a refusal to release the birth certificate. What possible reason could there be that would justify it?
03/10/09
He has looked into this and debunked it ad nauseum last year. Have a nice day.
03/10/09
03/10/09
Has all this been resolved to the satisfaction of reasonable, skeptical people?
Yep, pretty much.
For instance do you know of a source that covers both sides of the nationality "issue" objectively?
Time, The New York Times, CNN. Unless by "objective" you mean "gives equal weight to both the reasonable and the fucking crazy."
03/10/09
Thanks Nic Fit. Will check it out.
03/10/09
"As no one has ever disputed whether Obama's mother is a U.S. citizen who lived at least 5 years in the U.S."
Yes they have. 5 years beginning no earlier than the 16th birthday.
03/11/09
It is a known fact that McCain was NOT born in the US- he WAS born in Panama.
Some have even questioned whether he was even born on the military base.
[www.timesonline.co.uk]
Here are the freepers discussing it back in Feb 2008- they know all about the question, and some secretly hoped this would put Palin in the president's seat. ack!
[www.freerepublic.com]
03/11/09
[johnharding.com]
03/11/09
This is all party politics claptrap. We have to rid ourselves of the current electoral process and create a system managed by individuals who are not beholden to special interests.
03/11/09
This is a perfect example of how this very very partisan issue keeps getting shifted in order to prove the already disproven contention--that Obama isn't a U.S. citizen.
See, my concern is that people will continue to live in the distractions rather than taking any responsibility for participating in our government. The birth certificate already released by the Obama campaign settled any "dispute" about our President's citizenship. The rest is just rightwing paranoia.
03/11/09
Possibly. So lump me in with the nuts who aren't satisfied, but please understand that my dissatisfaction might come without the agenda. I do not agree with you that we are looking at a disproven (disproved?) contention.
As for participation in our government -- I've lived in this country for 25 years as an adult and I have seen year after year the difference in influence there is between corporate interests and voter interests. On the neighbourhood level, sure... but city, state, and national? We need a different system.
03/11/09
People who say that President Obama isn't a citizen should be given the same derisive laughter as the people who say the CIA caused 9/11, that the moon landing was faked, and that giant men live in the interior of the planet.
Just give them a cookie, a pat on head, and send them on their way like the children they are.
03/12/09
Shariq it sounds like your koolaid is stronger than mine.
03/10/09
But if an "investigative reporter" does decide to embark on a Wikipedia inquiry, the reporter does not NEED to ask his researcher to enter facts about the reporter's birth-certificate crusade to see if it gets deleted. As Klein himself points out, he (and anyone else crazy enough to think such nonsense matters) can MONITOR all deletions and additions on the Wikipedia edit page WITHOUT TOUCHING THE PAGE. And, by the way, why didn't he DISCLOSE that Jerusalem21 was his researcher (and not some random user)?
Gawker's earlier post that a Wikipedia user cited in Klein's article was "almost certainly Klein himself" was, in fact, accurate. Klein asked his paid researcher -- "Jerusalem21" -- to do it for him. This may have made him feel ethically better about the whole misguided project, but Gawker was right to call him out on it.
Finally, Klein needs an army of editors. His original story was invented out of whole cloth, and this long-winded, baroque defense is so poorly written (and built on a logic house of cards) that I had to read it three times before I could comprehend his laughable defense.
03/10/09
Well, you can't spell "Aaron Klein, you're a tool" without I R O N Y.
03/10/09
What am I missing here? The fact that a researcher was involved? What is the problem with that? The fact that the reporter reported on their experiences instead of hearsay?
Please enlighten.
03/11/09
03/10/09
And in any case, his entire premise is idiotic- of course Wikipedia will keep a very tight rein on entries such as President Obama's. They keep a tight rein on Britney Spears's fucking Wiki page, for God's sake.
And the cretins who keep harping on their monomaniacal idea that Obama was not born in Hawaii- well, they will never be dissuaded, they are still haunting the Net like crazy muttering fools. I keep seeing them pop up, and even Obama's 1961 birth announcement in a local Hawaiian paper isn't enough for these crackpots.