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New York, 2:49 PM
Sun Dec 6
14 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of BrendaGlocks BrendaGlocks
    08/19/09

    In reply to Dawn of the Chimpanzee! (Relax Folks, They're Just a Metaphor)
    If you remove the chimpanzee "metaphor"... is there anything in the content that isn't true? Is it just the imagery that upsets?
     Reply
    MissNormaDesmond promoted this comment Gabriel Snyder approved this comment BrendaGlocks was starred BrendaGlocks was unstarred
    Image of MissNormaDesmond MissNormaDesmond
    08/19/09

    @BrendaGlocks: Actually, there's plenty in the content that isn't vaguely true. Where was Meir Kahane from? Oh, right, the U.S. Portraying this debate as if it's not actually the U.S. that feeds a lot of the fanaticism in Israel, rather than the other way around, is stupid and simplistic. If I were one of the many Israelis who's worked hard for a peaceful solution only to watch nuts from the U.S. push hatred and bile, I'd be so frustrated and furious with this inane crap I'd want to puke.
     Reply
    MissNormaDesmond was starred MissNormaDesmond was unstarred
    Image of EV EV
    08/19/09

    @MissNormaDesmond: What about the comic is inconsistent with your criticism? It is a satire of very specific organizations and attitudes in the "affiliated" Jewish community in the United States. "Fuel for Chimpanzee Truth" (to use one example, on the t-shirt in the lower left panel) is based on this much-lauded extremist organization "Fuel for Truth."
    [www.youtube.com]
    This comic is a satire of American Jewish education and activism more than anything else. It's why I devoted 75 percent of the panels to America, not Israel.

    There are valid criticisms to be made of the comic, but I don't understand why you felt I was giving the U.S. a free pass. The comic is focused on the U.S.
     Reply
    Gabriel Snyder promoted this comment EV was starred EV was unstarred
    Image of MissNormaDesmond MissNormaDesmond
    08/19/09

    @EV: This would be why I called the comic ham-handed in another comment. I understand the point you're trying to make, but I think you're making it very badly. By putting the chimps in Israel and the supposedly more evolved beings here, you're implying that the problem originates in Israel, and that people have to be sent there to be infected with "chimpism". It very much doesn't -- it originates in both places. Again, Meir Kahane, one of the best known and most rabid fanatics of this sort, was born and raised here. So was Baruch Goldstein, author of the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre. Meanwhile, Amos Oz is Israeli by birth. Who's the chimp?
     Reply
    Edited by MissNormaDesmond at 08/19/09 4:04 PM MissNormaDesmond was starred MissNormaDesmond was unstarred
    Image of MissNormaDesmond MissNormaDesmond
    08/19/09

    @MissNormaDesmond: In other words, the problem isn't that your metaphor is offensive, it's that it's inapt.
     Reply
    MissNormaDesmond was starred MissNormaDesmond was unstarred
    Image of EV EV
    08/19/09

    @MissNormaDesmond: Thanks, I agree that it's a valid criticism when considering specific individuals here and in Israel. But the comic is a metaphor not for individuals but for ideology -- of the concept of Israel as the Homeland to which all American Jews should aspire if they seek pride and perfection -- and from this perspective, I felt that apes were the best metaphor to point out the absurdity of such concepts of physical and spiritual evolution. (For what it's worth, Zionist ideology has spoken from the start not only of spiritual ascent but of physical "betterment" as well.)

    But yes, if we're speaking about specific individuals, the two people you mentioned would be chimpanzees. But both of these people moved to Israel to live out their ideology -- so even by that standard, I think it's consistent within the metaphorical framework of the comic.

    Mostly, though, the comic isn't meant to be a litmus test of who's a chimpanzee and who isn't. It's meant to be a condemnation of formal and informal education among the actively engaged Jewish communities of the Diaspora.
     Reply
    EV was starred EV was unstarred
    Image of MissNormaDesmond MissNormaDesmond
    08/19/09

    @EV: Right, and I think you could have found a better metaphor for doing that that wouldn't have the implications this one does. A virus, perhaps? Particularly as it didn't take several generations for people like Kahane and Goldstein to show up -- they came and brought the chimpiness all by themselves. Kahane, in particular, created Kach, after all.

    Sorry for the earlier double post, by the way, I had no idea I'd done that.
     Reply
    Edited by MissNormaDesmond at 08/19/09 5:11 PM MissNormaDesmond was starred MissNormaDesmond was unstarred
    Image of wanderer wanderer
    08/19/09

    In reply to Dawn of the Chimpanzee! (Relax Folks, They're Just a Metaphor)
    So what if children are indoctrinated to love Israel? They don't vote, nor do they carry guns. Most of them grow up to be free-thinking people, who may not agree with Israeli policy but still love the country. The strategy worked well, and now there is the real possibility of a lasting Jewish state, side by side with a Palestinian one. If not for our Jewish education, we might have forgotten about Israel a long time ago. Certainly every other country has.

    America should have condemned unjust Israeli policy years ago, but the Christian right is as much to blame as the ultra-Zionists. Clearly their influence is waning.
     Reply
    MissNormaDesmond promoted this comment Gabriel Snyder approved this comment wanderer was starred wanderer was unstarred
    Image of iplaudius iplaudius
    08/18/09

    In reply to Dawn of the Chimpanzee! (Relax Folks, They're Just a Metaphor)
    So, if they’re all monkeys, I suppose the superior Children of the Enlightenment ought to move in and build a zoo.
     Reply
    iplaudius was starred iplaudius was unstarred
    Image of Bitrex Bitrex
    08/18/09

    In reply to Dawn of the Chimpanzee! (Relax Folks, They're Just a Metaphor)
    How did the peaceful mice manage to evolve into warring chimpanzees so quickly?
     Reply
    raincoaster promoted this comment Edited by Bitrex at 08/18/09 7:05 PM Bitrex was starred Bitrex was unstarred
    Image of Foster Kamer Foster Kamer
    08/18/09

    In reply to Dawn of the Chimpanzee! (Relax Folks, They're Just a Metaphor)
    No "Fucking Jews" tag for Eli? Sad.
     Reply
    Foster Kamer was starred Foster Kamer was unstarred
    Image of Gabriel Snyder Gabriel Snyder
    08/18/09

    @Foster Kamer: I figured Eli's in enough trouble with Abe Foxman as it is.
     Reply
    Gabriel Snyder was starred Gabriel Snyder was unstarred
    Image of Phyllis Nefler Phyllis Nefler
    08/19/09

    @Foster Kamer: I just hope this leads to Denton re-friending Eli on Facebook.
     Reply
    Phyllis Nefler was starred Phyllis Nefler was unstarred
    Image of bens bens
    08/18/09

    In reply to Dawn of the Chimpanzee! (Relax Folks, They're Just a Metaphor)
    Ultra Zionist people are pretty nuts, but they are also crafty. Growing up, my parents forced me to Hebrew school; where they had these charity boxes where you would collect money to plant trees in Israel. Great. I like trees. I'd put a quarter in the box. As it turns out, the trees are planted in "conflict zones" where Arabs dispute land in Israel. The Israeli government declares a portion of land a conflict zone and these Zionist organizations go in and plant trees there. The Arabs who would farm and herd their animals on the land were therefore excluded from it because the land was now declared a "forest" with strict ecological requirements: mainly that you couldn't enter for fear of trampling seedlings. The Zionists win because they tangled up another Arab land claim, Israeli settlers win because there are no Arabs nearby, and Americans win because they think they're protecting the environment by paying to plant trees.
     Reply
    Gabriel Snyder promoted this comment bens was starred bens was unstarred
    Image of DoctorEcks DoctorEcks
    08/18/09

    In reply to Dawn of the Chimpanzee! (Relax Folks, They're Just a Metaphor)
    Um...OK. It's like some sort of confused attempt to duplicate a comic out of "Raw". As if R. Crumb had a stroke.
     Reply
    MissNormaDesmond promoted this comment DoctorEcks was starred DoctorEcks was unstarred
    Image of MissNormaDesmond MissNormaDesmond
    08/18/09

    @DoctorEcks: I concur with your analysis.

    Seriously, I might have spiked this, not because it's too controversial, but because it's ham-handed as hell.
     Reply
    MissNormaDesmond was starred MissNormaDesmond was unstarred
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