Why is this the hill you want to die on, Hamilton? I mean, as SarahHeartburn, MissNormaDesmond and others have pointed out, these are not simply "rhetorical flourishes" -- they are active calls to enact violence against one of the most vulnerable groups in one of the most murderous places in the whole entire world.
And I personally am of the belief that we can judge and impugn an "artists" for his politics when he puts them out there with the express purpose of inciting crimes against humanity. Crimes in which HE HIMSELF is alleged to have participated.
This is not the guy to have a higher-brow conversation about. At all. Jesus.
Then there's this:
"One of Jamaica's most famous dancehall singers, Buju Banton, is being sought by police in Jamaica in connection with a homophobic attack on a group of gay men.
Mr Banton was allegedly one of a group of about a dozen armed men who forced their way into a house in Kingston on the morning of June 24 and beat up the occupants while shouting homophobic insults, according to the victims.
At least two people were taken to the hospital. Mr Banton - whose song Boom Boom Bye Bye threatens gay men with a "gunshot in ah head" - was identified by several witnesses and is wanted for questioning.
"There is a pattern of police indifference to attacks on gay men in Jamaica that goes far beyond what Buju Banton is alleged to have done in this case," said Rebecca Schleiser of Human Rights Watch, who has spoken to several of the victims. "Neither his fame nor the stigma attached to the victims should stand in the way of a full, fair and complete police investigation."
Peter Tatchell, of Outrage, said: "This substantiates our claims of the links between murder music and actual physical violence against gays and lesbians. Critics of the campaign [to stop murder music] have said that the homophobic content of his lyrics is 'ironic' or just 'fantasy'.
"Now the star is wanted for a very real violent incident."
Last month, concern that a concert in London by another dancehall favourite, Beenie Man, could incite violence against gays led to its cancellation. One of Beenie Man's songs contains the lyrics: "I'm a dreaming of a new Jamaica, come to execute all the gays."
Concern at the climate of homophobia in Jamaica has intensified in recent months following the murder of the country's most prominent gay activist, Brian Williamson.
Mr Williamson, a co-founder of Jamaican Forum for Lesbians, All-sexuals and Gays (J-Flag), was found with his throat cut and multiple stab wounds to his neck and face.
Jamaican law makes any act of physical intimacy between men punishable by jail, with the possibility of hard labour. A recent poll found 96% of Jamaicans were opposed to moves to legalise homosexual relations. Several gay Jamaicans have successfully claimed asylum in Britain on grounds of homophobia."
@ronniedobbs: Your tirade is overlooking a crucial element of this story - those jammin' beats.
If beating up gays is the secret to making such wondrous dancehall bangers, isn't that a small price to pay? That somebody would sully such beautiful music with their armchair moralizing, that is the real crime here.
This line of reasoning might work with someone like Prince, an actual musical genius who just happens to be a religious wackadoo going door-to-door to peddle whatever harmless lovesexy message jehovah sent to him.
But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, Hamilton, and assume that this is some sort of meta-ironic Gawker thing with layers of humor that I am not sophisticated enough to understand, because "jammin" is such a stupid, piss-poor excuse for liking SOMEONE WHO ACTIVELY USES HIS CELEBRITY TO ADVOCATE THE MURDER OF HOMOSEXUALS.
I mean, seriously, wtf? Please tell me this is a joke I don't understand. Because I honestly thought you were more intelligent than this.
This is the first, and hopefully last time that I find caps-lock necessary on this site.
By pretending to be discussing two separate issues, this post actually conflates them. Only an idiot would say his political views make him a bad musician. The quality of the music isn't the question. Either it's sensible to protest when people support blatant, murderous hate in their art or it's not, but it's not dependent on the quality of the art. You seem to be saying that it would be all right to protest this guy if his music sucked, but since it doesn't, everyone should clam up.
The man isn't just using the occasional homophobic slur, and he isn't voicing understandable rage against people who oppress him -- he wants to kill faggots the same way the Klan wanted to kill niggers, because he's hateful. It's sad that this is what he's devoting his undeniable talent to, but if you're telling me that because of the existence of that talent I should turn a deaf ear to the substance of what he's saying, you've lost me. Because you see faggots actually get killed. If you want to ignore that, that's your karma, but don't expect me to go along with you. And don't expect me not to be disgusted by the idea of celebrating the music and giving it prizes. No matter how "jammin'" it may be.
Where is Tipper Gore? I'm pretty sure we already went through this kind of thing with Ice-T quite some time ago, except with cops in place of gays.
Mr. Banton has rights to both free speech and artistic license, but the price of those rights is that he also has to recognize the countervaling right to vigorously protest what he says.
Personally, I'm disgusted by the sentiments displayed towards gays and women in dancehall culture. But I also have every right to put out a mixtape in which I lay out the numerous and detailed humiliations Mr. Banton will suffer at the hands of the Hell's Angels, Halsted Street chapter.
@AndPreciousLittleofThat: Tipper Gore wanted to outright censor that music. GLAAD is just saying please don't give the guy a Grammy.
Also, there is a long history of minorities suffering at the hands of police abuse. This is just a guy who hates gays for no apparent reason other than they are gay. I think both have the right to sing about these things if they want, but the former seems like a worthier form of expression.
@nozer: I see what you did there. I just try to exercise plausible deniability when listening to California Dreamin'. And, well, they never preached about the virtues of incest from the stage.
This post is a joke, right? Is it so droll I'm just not getting it, or what?
Do you have any idea of the violence and repression that gays in Jamaica suffer at the hands of the police and the courts and everyday scumbags? This is no joke. This asshole incites people to kill. Friends of mine, a gay couple, lived in Jamaica for a few years and only because one of them had a diplomatic passport were they able to get about without problems. I'm stunned at your insensitivity and ignorance of what's really happening there.
Can't wait till the Klan comes up with a jammin' beat. Oh, wait, they already have. They've beaten a lot of people to death.
@SarahHeartburn: Oh, I was referring to the comment about Frank Sinatra, who was a raging homophobe, but I think maybe the commenter knows that and is being ironic. Sadly, I'm afraid the post itself is entirely serious.
@MissNormaDesmond: Take it back MissNormaDesmond. Nobody lived and loved like Frank. NOBODY. Plus, he was an Italian guy who fought for equal rights for the Blacks in the 1950s (awesomely ahead of his time). Well he fought for Sammy Davis Junior's rights anyways.
@ParahSalin: He certainly wasn't on the level of the subject of the post, no, but given that he was in the movie business and had to have worked with numerous gay people at one point or another, he didn't have the same excuses the average joe in the 50s did for accepting and maintaining homophobic stereotypes. He'd been close friends with Montgomery Clift until he found out Clift was gay, then cut him dead. That's kind of shitty.
@MissNormaDesmond: I had no idea those two were ever friends. Odd couple, but honestly, how could anyone dislike Monty? He was such a sensitive, tortured soul, and so beautiful. I've always known Sinatra was a bit of a dick, but I gave him a pass because of his talent and his stand on civil rights for Sammy Davis Jr.. Now I have to go back to disliking him.
If artists make an effort to integrate their political beliefs into their music, and into their performances, should listeners ignore the deeply offensive opinions in favor of the music anyway? I can't imagine anybody here being supportive of white power rock because it had a good beat.
@Lucky: My thoughts exactly. If a white-supremacist band was trying to get a Grammy, I don't think this would even be an issue.
Considering that Uganda right now is trying to pass a law that would make homosexuality a crime eligible for the death penalty, and would also send people to jail for years who don't "report" homosexual behavior (oh--and the law allegedly has support from some right-wing politicians in the U.S.), it seems downright disgusting to award this kind of music and sentiment a Grammy.
@Lucky: i don't know. when they were still good, i was pretty damn supportive of guns n roses, even though axl wrote some lyrics that put buju's to shame in the hatin department. that's probably the better analogy anyway- it's not like buju's entire oeuvre is about gay-bashing. (unlike, say a white power band whose entire raison d'etre is white power.)
@Atilla the Bun: I'm having a real hard time feeling comfortable with the separation that HamNo wants to make. If a political cartoonist (and the paper that employs him) shouldn't be supported for his racist/homophobic work, why should a musical artist who continues to advocate actual violence against gays get a pass because the rest of his stuff is enjoyable to listen to? An artist's work, unlike that of a baseball player, is largely centered around spreading their ideas through lyrics/art/whatever. How can those ideas be ignored?
@Lucky: Agreed. This guy uses his very music to relay his message. He has the right to do that all he wants, but I don't think he should win a Grammy award for it.
@loosecanon: The lyrics to some Guns 'N Roses songs were questionable, but I generally thought they were not to be taken in the literal sense. It seems often Rose was playing a character (or caricature) in some of his songs. There is simply no question that Buju has advocated EXTREME violence against gays both in his lyrics and his speech.
But I'll be honest, once more and more about Rose's actual personality came out in interviews (particularly the way he liked to beat up women), I had trouble listening to Guns 'N Roses the same way again. I still like Appetite for Destruction, but I can't listen to it with the naivety that I could when I was 15 (yes, I'm old). Sweet Child O' Mine loses some of its romance when you know Rose wrote it for a girl that he beat up on a regular basis. (Still love Rocket Queen, though!)
@demidan: I read that. I thought it was creepy enough they called themselves "The Family" and all live together in a dorm in D.C. But this is just beyond the pale.
@Atilla the Bun: why is it that white artists are always granted artistic license and an assumption that they're playing a role of some sort, but black artists are never afforded the same thing? like ice-t was actually advocating the slaughter of police, but axl is only playing a role. here is a quote from "one in a million," a first-person, apparently autobiographiccal song in which axl talks about his early impressions of l.a. after hitching a ride there:
Immigrants and faggots
They make no sense to me
They come to our country
And think they'll do as they please
Like start some mini Iran
Or spread some fucking disease
They talk so many goddamn ways
It's all greek to me
etc, etc.
(there's also the verse about police and niggers.)
there's nothing in that song to suggest that the narrator is anyone other than axl himself. whereas when ice t claims to be a cop killer, a person who actually guns down cops en masse, that's literal. i've never been comfortable with that double standard.
also, i call bullshit on the political cartoon analogy. yall are missing the point. the separation that hamno is asking you to think about is the idea that art can be good in spite of some of the questionable ideas advanced by its practitioners. a political cartoonist isn't a picasso that just happens to maybe espouse some bad ideas from time to time. by definition, he's someone who (often clumsily) uses a graphic format to make political commentary. if delonas' work was really interesting formally, i'd maybe grudgingly grant him that. but it is both formally and ideologically loathsome. so, fail. not the case with buju banton, guns n roses, wagner, etc, etc.
I really hope the kid's fifteen minutes can go another five for the sake of everyone so invested, but I don't find the fact that he'll be on a show partially-owned by Barbara Walters to promote a Barbara Walters-owned, Barbara Walters Special, all that surprising.
Lambert seriously strikes me as attempting to be "spokesperson of the gheighs", when in fact he seems to me to be the least attractive candidate for this position. It seems that he can't decide which way to play his sexuality so that it gets the most publicity. Then when he hears "gay it up a little" from the blogs, he interprets that as "face-hump a dude on a network television awards show and piss off a whole bunch of people". Go away, please, Adam, you're making the rest of us look like fameballing twatwaffles by association.
seyswho promoted this comment
Edited by Nigerian Business Executive at 12/05/09 1:19 PM
Nigerian Business Executive was starred
Nigerian Business Executive was unstarred
@seyswho: I don't think he's trying to be a spokesperson for gays. He's trying to become a popular performer who is also gay. And that's precisely why GLAAD isn't mounting a stronger defense. They want him to be more political.
He's not acting as a group advocate but as a group member. Instead of message points, he wants the freedom to express himself however he wants. Of course, that's the stated goal of gay equality, so in the long-term, he's doing more for gays than GLAAD. But now, he seems politically awkward and embarrassing.
@FlowChart: Good points, that makes a lot of sense. It just seems like he can't find his sexuality "groove" - like he's trying too hard to be liked by everyone (when that will never happen), and in turn he's creating the exact opposite effect. Of course, really, all of this would probably be a moot point if he could just sing and perform worth a damn.
12/08/09
And I personally am of the belief that we can judge and impugn an "artists" for his politics when he puts them out there with the express purpose of inciting crimes against humanity. Crimes in which HE HIMSELF is alleged to have participated.
This is not the guy to have a higher-brow conversation about. At all. Jesus.
Then there's this:
"One of Jamaica's most famous dancehall singers, Buju Banton, is being sought by police in Jamaica in connection with a homophobic attack on a group of gay men.
Mr Banton was allegedly one of a group of about a dozen armed men who forced their way into a house in Kingston on the morning of June 24 and beat up the occupants while shouting homophobic insults, according to the victims.
At least two people were taken to the hospital. Mr Banton - whose song Boom Boom Bye Bye threatens gay men with a "gunshot in ah head" - was identified by several witnesses and is wanted for questioning.
"There is a pattern of police indifference to attacks on gay men in Jamaica that goes far beyond what Buju Banton is alleged to have done in this case," said Rebecca Schleiser of Human Rights Watch, who has spoken to several of the victims. "Neither his fame nor the stigma attached to the victims should stand in the way of a full, fair and complete police investigation."
Peter Tatchell, of Outrage, said: "This substantiates our claims of the links between murder music and actual physical violence against gays and lesbians. Critics of the campaign [to stop murder music] have said that the homophobic content of his lyrics is 'ironic' or just 'fantasy'.
"Now the star is wanted for a very real violent incident."
Last month, concern that a concert in London by another dancehall favourite, Beenie Man, could incite violence against gays led to its cancellation. One of Beenie Man's songs contains the lyrics: "I'm a dreaming of a new Jamaica, come to execute all the gays."
Concern at the climate of homophobia in Jamaica has intensified in recent months following the murder of the country's most prominent gay activist, Brian Williamson.
Mr Williamson, a co-founder of Jamaican Forum for Lesbians, All-sexuals and Gays (J-Flag), was found with his throat cut and multiple stab wounds to his neck and face.
Jamaican law makes any act of physical intimacy between men punishable by jail, with the possibility of hard labour. A recent poll found 96% of Jamaicans were opposed to moves to legalise homosexual relations. Several gay Jamaicans have successfully claimed asylum in Britain on grounds of homophobia."
[www.guardian.co.uk]
12/08/09
If beating up gays is the secret to making such wondrous dancehall bangers, isn't that a small price to pay? That somebody would sully such beautiful music with their armchair moralizing, that is the real crime here.
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I’m not comfortable giving money and cultural capital to people who preach hate and violence.
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But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, Hamilton, and assume that this is some sort of meta-ironic Gawker thing with layers of humor that I am not sophisticated enough to understand, because "jammin" is such a stupid, piss-poor excuse for liking SOMEONE WHO ACTIVELY USES HIS CELEBRITY TO ADVOCATE THE MURDER OF HOMOSEXUALS.
I mean, seriously, wtf? Please tell me this is a joke I don't understand. Because I honestly thought you were more intelligent than this.
This is the first, and hopefully last time that I find caps-lock necessary on this site.
12/08/09
The man isn't just using the occasional homophobic slur, and he isn't voicing understandable rage against people who oppress him -- he wants to kill faggots the same way the Klan wanted to kill niggers, because he's hateful. It's sad that this is what he's devoting his undeniable talent to, but if you're telling me that because of the existence of that talent I should turn a deaf ear to the substance of what he's saying, you've lost me. Because you see faggots actually get killed. If you want to ignore that, that's your karma, but don't expect me to go along with you. And don't expect me not to be disgusted by the idea of celebrating the music and giving it prizes. No matter how "jammin'" it may be.
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Mr. Banton has rights to both free speech and artistic license, but the price of those rights is that he also has to recognize the countervaling right to vigorously protest what he says.
Personally, I'm disgusted by the sentiments displayed towards gays and women in dancehall culture. But I also have every right to put out a mixtape in which I lay out the numerous and detailed humiliations Mr. Banton will suffer at the hands of the Hell's Angels, Halsted Street chapter.
12/08/09
Also, there is a long history of minorities suffering at the hands of police abuse. This is just a guy who hates gays for no apparent reason other than they are gay. I think both have the right to sing about these things if they want, but the former seems like a worthier form of expression.
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EDIT: If you care, it's in my reply to Atilla below.
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Do you have any idea of the violence and repression that gays in Jamaica suffer at the hands of the police and the courts and everyday scumbags? This is no joke. This asshole incites people to kill. Friends of mine, a gay couple, lived in Jamaica for a few years and only because one of them had a diplomatic passport were they able to get about without problems. I'm stunned at your insensitivity and ignorance of what's really happening there.
Can't wait till the Klan comes up with a jammin' beat. Oh, wait, they already have. They've beaten a lot of people to death.
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(Sorry... I couldn't think of a good homophobic filmmaker off the top of my head so I had to opt for racism. Hmmm maybe Vincente Minnelli?)
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Considering that Uganda right now is trying to pass a law that would make homosexuality a crime eligible for the death penalty, and would also send people to jail for years who don't "report" homosexual behavior (oh--and the law allegedly has support from some right-wing politicians in the U.S.), it seems downright disgusting to award this kind of music and sentiment a Grammy.
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But I'll be honest, once more and more about Rose's actual personality came out in interviews (particularly the way he liked to beat up women), I had trouble listening to Guns 'N Roses the same way again. I still like Appetite for Destruction, but I can't listen to it with the naivety that I could when I was 15 (yes, I'm old). Sweet Child O' Mine loses some of its romance when you know Rose wrote it for a girl that he beat up on a regular basis. (Still love Rocket Queen, though!)
12/09/09
12/09/09
Immigrants and faggots
They make no sense to me
They come to our country
And think they'll do as they please
Like start some mini Iran
Or spread some fucking disease
They talk so many goddamn ways
It's all greek to me
etc, etc.
(there's also the verse about police and niggers.)
there's nothing in that song to suggest that the narrator is anyone other than axl himself. whereas when ice t claims to be a cop killer, a person who actually guns down cops en masse, that's literal. i've never been comfortable with that double standard.
also, i call bullshit on the political cartoon analogy. yall are missing the point. the separation that hamno is asking you to think about is the idea that art can be good in spite of some of the questionable ideas advanced by its practitioners. a political cartoonist isn't a picasso that just happens to maybe espouse some bad ideas from time to time. by definition, he's someone who (often clumsily) uses a graphic format to make political commentary. if delonas' work was really interesting formally, i'd maybe grudgingly grant him that. but it is both formally and ideologically loathsome. so, fail. not the case with buju banton, guns n roses, wagner, etc, etc.
12/08/09
12/06/09
ETA: ...or maybe it's fascinating?
12/05/09
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I doubt his shiny star will last very long in any case.
12/05/09
He's not acting as a group advocate but as a group member. Instead of message points, he wants the freedom to express himself however he wants. Of course, that's the stated goal of gay equality, so in the long-term, he's doing more for gays than GLAAD. But now, he seems politically awkward and embarrassing.
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12/06/09
Agreed. On this point, we are in complete harmony.