It's been my contention for some time now, that the whole point of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars originally, was to set the stage for a larger regional change, countenanced by all the great powers, wherein Iran/Persia is finally given its political due, and allowed to exercise its sphere of influence.
I think the original Bush/Cheney plan, was to actually invade Iran to effect this change, but that China and particularly Russia were both dead-set against that. So US policy had to remain tied to establishing more or less democratic outposts east and west of Iran, and letting it stew in its own juices.
There have been signs for some years now that a large percentage of those supporting the original Iranian Revolution have been marginalized by a smaller and smaller elite, who are seeking to maintain what they view as doctrinal purity of their revolutionary ideals via repressive policies. And this pressure cooker has really evolved totally independent of any outside influences. It's finally reached a point where it is boiling over. So ultimately, the elites either have to open up the paths to power for those seeking to preserve the original revolution by moderation, or they will be pushed aside by the increasing number of those they step on with their repressive policies.
In neither case will the result be representative government as it is envisioned in the West; the highest authorities are still likely to be clerics. But the important thing, will be the ability, finally after so many decades, of the Iranians/Persians to develop their own culturally unique system of representative government, with traditions of tranfer of power other than coups and revolutions. And that's a good thing.
I don't think there is any way for the repression to work this time.
I went to my waxing joint this afternoon, my standing monthly appointment, and my waxer was crying at the front desk. She is Iranian and her brother went missing yesterday, she was nearly sobbing and shaking and everyone was talking about it with her. The owner sent her home. It was horrible.
@MargotheDoeEyedFMachine: This whole thing reminds me once again how terrible the Iraq war has been. Americans really do have power and compassion, and any amount of goodwill we had was ruined during that fiasco.
I know a lot of people over there hate us. I know a lot of us hate them, too. And I know most of that is because of propaganda, misinformation and an inability to leave one's comfort zone.
But when it comes down to it, everyone deserves to live in a free society, and while we're not perfect, we're a lot closer than most. I hope we can find some way to assist them now. They deserve better than the dictatorship (I don't care how you dress it up, that's what it is) they have. I only wish I were brave enough to fight the battle they're fighting.
I'm cynical, but not when it comes to this stuff. Makes my heart ache and makes me glad to live where I do, problems included. Best wishes to your friend.
Moussavi wants to build nukes and also wants to destroy Israel, so he's fairly indistinguishable from the mad midget in that way. But he's not a messianic nut and he wants to stop the morality police and give the people other modernizing freedoms, so that's pretty much the difference.
@The One: It's starting to appear that he may actually end up being more democratic and reasonable by the end of this than he started out. I suspect the very real possibility that he and thousands of his supporters may be killed over this whole thing might have something to do with that.
@Go Like Hell Machine: As trite as it sounds, I'm really praying for that kind of outcome - that the mullahs fall, this guy takes over and after everything that has happened, he changes some of his views, and Iran becomes a free, non-theocratic nation.
@BxgrlJeri: I'm sure the relatives of those scores of people who have recently lost their lives in Iran are going to find it heeeelarious.
In fact, I find likening an entire country stuck in grave crisis mode and struggling to define its future to someone "going batsh*t" the height of sophisticated wit! And humanistic nuance.
@snugbug: You're posting at 4 a.m. on a Sunday morning which means you are totally drunk. Secondly, there is serious concern here amid the sarcasm, and Gawker ledes are part of the reason many of us have been reading our news here for so long.
It seems that guys like Andrew Sullivan are fancying themselves part of the battle - and they very much are - and are just trying to keep the lines of information open.
No, he's not. Stop trying to cast an American pundit sitting safely in his Washington office into a figure of a revolutionary vanguard. His incessant posts don't remotely compare to the courage displayed by the thousands of people who keep taking to the streets of Tehran (and elsewhere in Iran).
When you say that "he has been ruthlessly compiling a lot of unfiltered information," I read that he puts up on his blog a pile of stuff that he doesn't bother to vet in order to keep the links to his site going. He's an opportunist and he's not helping to advance a truth-based narrative coming out of Iran.
See here for an analysis earlier this week of the misinformation about the Iranian elections and their aftermath that Sullivan helped to spread early and often:
I also highly recommend this piece ([www.cinestatic.com]) by an Iranian political scientist on the elections and their larger context. If you want to inform your readers, you guys really need to link to diverse and knowledgeable Iranian voices much more and to poseurs like Sullivan much less.
@persimmon: I read the Joshua Kucera piece in true/slant. It wasn't that impressive or well-argued. It's simply taking a more skeptical position than eveyone else is taking. In the sense that it provides no evidence to back up his argument, it's even less well-reasoned than some of Andrew Sullivan's stuff in the recent week -- the most of which, I agree, should be taken with a gain of salt.
@i'm a bottle: No, you're right about the TrueSlant piece. I corrected myself in my next comment. I meant to link to Jack Shafer's piece in Slate. (I usually disdain Shafer's smugness and his politics, but he made good arguments in that article about Twitter and how it's been used by pundits over the past week.)
@persimmon: Listen, champ: Sullivan and the Lede are two important blogs from a media standpoint, which is where we're covering this from. I don't think anyone's coming here expecting Chomsky-esque breakdowns and linkage. Mind you, you get 'The Wintour Of Our Discontent' (so terrible it merits a 'heh') first thing in the morning.
That being said, when it comes to newsier stuff, I'll take your suggestions and be reading into all of the tonight. But as for comparing Andrew Sullivan to a revolutionary getting shot at with live rounds, you did that, not me. I said Sullivan "fancied himself..." I won't ban you for disagreeing, but I will for coming after me when you're not even reading the posts.
"A ally of Moussavi notes that he was "ready for martyrdom" if it came to that." That's not an idle boast in that area of the world. I pretty much had thought that Moussavi was the lesser of two evils and that he was incidental to the reform, but in order for there to be a true reformation of the government, the elements who are seeking Democracy need a hero/leader around which to rally.
This country is run by the clerics. In order for that to change, someone has to stand up to the clerics. If this election was rigged, and it appears that it in all likelihood it was, I can now see why the powers that be prefer Ahmadinejad to Moussavi. Moussavi isn't controllable.
I would also like for them to quit choosing Ayatollah's with similarly spelled names that sound a lot alike when spoken out loud.
@ChillbearLatrigue: Ugh. That whole Khomeini-Khamenei thing bugs me every time. But then it reminds me of the hilarity that broke out at Khomeini's funeral, when the crowd rushed the coffin and wound up dumping his corpse on the ground and it rolled down the aisle (or something like that).
06/21/09
That is the difference between a revolt and a revolution.
06/20/09
I think the original Bush/Cheney plan, was to actually invade Iran to effect this change, but that China and particularly Russia were both dead-set against that. So US policy had to remain tied to establishing more or less democratic outposts east and west of Iran, and letting it stew in its own juices.
There have been signs for some years now that a large percentage of those supporting the original Iranian Revolution have been marginalized by a smaller and smaller elite, who are seeking to maintain what they view as doctrinal purity of their revolutionary ideals via repressive policies. And this pressure cooker has really evolved totally independent of any outside influences. It's finally reached a point where it is boiling over. So ultimately, the elites either have to open up the paths to power for those seeking to preserve the original revolution by moderation, or they will be pushed aside by the increasing number of those they step on with their repressive policies.
In neither case will the result be representative government as it is envisioned in the West; the highest authorities are still likely to be clerics. But the important thing, will be the ability, finally after so many decades, of the Iranians/Persians to develop their own culturally unique system of representative government, with traditions of tranfer of power other than coups and revolutions. And that's a good thing.
I don't think there is any way for the repression to work this time.
06/20/09
06/20/09
06/20/09
I know a lot of people over there hate us. I know a lot of us hate them, too. And I know most of that is because of propaganda, misinformation and an inability to leave one's comfort zone.
But when it comes down to it, everyone deserves to live in a free society, and while we're not perfect, we're a lot closer than most. I hope we can find some way to assist them now. They deserve better than the dictatorship (I don't care how you dress it up, that's what it is) they have. I only wish I were brave enough to fight the battle they're fighting.
I'm cynical, but not when it comes to this stuff. Makes my heart ache and makes me glad to live where I do, problems included. Best wishes to your friend.
06/20/09
06/20/09
06/20/09
But maybe if he survives this whole thing, his outlook and stances on certain issues might change.
06/20/09
06/20/09
06/21/09
06/20/09
06/20/09
Because, you know, there totally should be...
06/21/09
In fact, I find likening an entire country stuck in grave crisis mode and struggling to define its future to someone "going batsh*t" the height of sophisticated wit! And humanistic nuance.
06/21/09
Also, go Andrew Sullivan.
06/20/09
06/20/09
06/20/09
No, he's not. Stop trying to cast an American pundit sitting safely in his Washington office into a figure of a revolutionary vanguard. His incessant posts don't remotely compare to the courage displayed by the thousands of people who keep taking to the streets of Tehran (and elsewhere in Iran).
When you say that "he has been ruthlessly compiling a lot of unfiltered information," I read that he puts up on his blog a pile of stuff that he doesn't bother to vet in order to keep the links to his site going. He's an opportunist and he's not helping to advance a truth-based narrative coming out of Iran.
See here for an analysis earlier this week of the misinformation about the Iranian elections and their aftermath that Sullivan helped to spread early and often:
[trueslant.com]
I also highly recommend this piece ([www.cinestatic.com]) by an Iranian political scientist on the elections and their larger context. If you want to inform your readers, you guys really need to link to diverse and knowledgeable Iranian voices much more and to poseurs like Sullivan much less.
06/20/09
06/20/09
06/20/09
06/20/09
That being said, when it comes to newsier stuff, I'll take your suggestions and be reading into all of the tonight. But as for comparing Andrew Sullivan to a revolutionary getting shot at with live rounds, you did that, not me. I said Sullivan "fancied himself..." I won't ban you for disagreeing, but I will for coming after me when you're not even reading the posts.
06/20/09
This country is run by the clerics. In order for that to change, someone has to stand up to the clerics. If this election was rigged, and it appears that it in all likelihood it was, I can now see why the powers that be prefer Ahmadinejad to Moussavi. Moussavi isn't controllable.
I would also like for them to quit choosing Ayatollah's with similarly spelled names that sound a lot alike when spoken out loud.
06/20/09
06/20/09
06/20/09
06/20/09
06/20/09
06/21/09