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New York, 11:54 AM
Mon Nov 23
25 posts in the last 24 hours
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10/09/09
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10/09/09
10/09/09
10/09/09
10/09/09
10/09/09
10/09/09
10/10/09
And don't kid yourself; she'd still hit it, if she thought it would do her any good. But now she's working for the Torygraph, which is developing quite a line in publishing barely-literate essays by Ex-Mistresses of the Lesser Gods.
03/31/09
03/31/09
03/11/09
03/12/09
Heh!
03/11/09
[drorly.blogspot.com]
03/11/09
Do a little research on the good doctor Taitz. Outside the die-hard birfer crowd, she's a laughingstock.
03/12/09
I did Salena. That was the point of my comment.
03/10/09
Aaron, if you or your researcher is reading this (and I know you are): if THAT is your idea of journalism, and if "investigative journalists engage in exactly this kind of testing," then the profession is fucked, and us journalists may as well work at Starbucks.
03/10/09
My point? (Yes, I have one!) Is that different states have different documentation. And don't mock your loved ones b.c., that's just rude.
03/10/09
[latimesblogs.latimes.com]
settle the question? Have you seen more documentation for other presidential candidates? Since the fact of Obama's mother's citizenship is enough to settle the question of whether the man is himself eligible to be president (it is...it really is).
And please, this is more or less the same information that's on my birth certificate. Kindly enlighten me about what a "long form" birth certificate offers that this doesn't.
I'll say this: it's certainly resolved to my satisfaction. Much, much more, for instance, than George W. Bush's imaginary National Guard Vietnam War draft dodge was. And that was important because that particular draft dodger had no problem sending 4,000+ Americans to die in an unjust war.
I'm much more concerned with what Obama is doing now than whether the fevered imaginations of a bunch of conspiracy nuts, whose skepticism can never be answered, are satisfied about a phony, made up issue.
03/10/09
My questions, I think, come out of a little fear -- fear that they will begin to uncover some serious nastiness, which, on top of what's happening with the economy, could deal a huge blow to the national psyche. Big crisis with strong, trustworthy leaders -- not the end of the world. Big crisis with fallen heros at the helm -- serious badness.
03/10/09
hoho, see this for differences between short and long forms (you posted the short form):
[en.wikipedia.org]
The following looks like a reasonable summary of my questions:
citizensagainstproobamamediabi...
.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/colb-vs-long-form-birth-certificate/">[citizensagainstproobamamediabi....wordpress.com]It hits the big reason this is so troubling (to me at least): The ease with which he could dismiss all this garbage, but hasn't.
From this, it looks like Obama really shouldn't even need to approve a release of the original:
""There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama's official birth certificate," said Chiyome Fukino. "State law prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.""
[hotair.com]
A tangible interest? The state of Hawaii does not consider those who requested it, for the purpose of establishing the citizenship of a president, as having a tangible interest?
The first place to look when debunking is Snopes.com, right?
[www.snopes.com]
Notice that they simply state that Obama was born in HI. Also notice that they post the same "short" document that you posted previously.
I was horrified by the knee-jerks of some others above. This puts them about the same level as the right wing loonies, or worse, in my opinion. Thanks for engaging and discussing this intelligently.
03/11/09
03/11/09
Not fair, Mori. I've tried to address the less emotional/more considered responses. Vague, sure, but bizarre? I just don't know what will be happening in coming months. Believe it or not, but I would be much happier if it turned out Obama was everything he's billed as. I'm just not getting that feeling. I railed against the Bushies and I'm exploring whether or not there is value in supporting the new admistration. Maybe that makes me a centrist wingnut? Obama is not a religion. If he and his crowd are as good as his mindless worshipers think they are, great. Honestly. You sound pretty caught up in the whole "this party is better than that party" thing, so we probably don't have much to talk about.
03/11/09
"The short form typically includes the child's name, date of birth, sex, and place of birth, although some also include the names of the child's parents. When the certification does include the names of the parents, it can be used in lieu of a long form birth certificate in almost all circumstances."
The photocopy of Obama's birth certificate that he's released (see here: [latimesblogs.latimes.com]) has the names of both of his parents on it.
Also, that that same birth certificate linked above also says this at the bottom: "This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding."
So according to both those standards, this so-called "short" certificate is, in fact, the legal documentation of his citizenship.
What wikipedia (a source I don't view as authoritative in the first place, btw) calls a "long birth certificate" is apparently a photocopy of the original papers the doctors signed in the hospital that day. Who the fuck ever heard of presenting papers like that to document their ID? It wouldn't surprise me if the hospital no longer retained such photocopy records after all these years.
I was born the same year as Obama, in Maryland, and my birth certificate is card that has less info on it than the one Obama has already released publicly. I've used it to get my SS card, driver's license and passport over the years. Nobody ever told me it wasn't my "official" certificate.
The problem here, as others have stated, is that once he's released the legal documentation, the nuts just say, "we don't think that's good enough for us ... please release photocpies and detailed hospital records." And the logical answer to that is: Fuck you. Why should he do that? There's no satisfying you people. What will you be demanding next? Photographs of the infant Obama emerging from his mother's womb?
03/11/09
"This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding."
I don't read this as "fact of birth in a certain location or under certain circumstances," I read it as this is a legal certification of a birth, period.
" it can be used in lieu of a long form birth certificate in almost all circumstances"
I would suggest that this might be one of the few exceptional circumstances (don't know if they define this themselves).
"It wouldn't surprise me if the hospital no longer retained such photocopy records after all these years."
But the hospital administration has attested that they've seen the original long document.
"Nobody ever told me it wasn't my "official" certificate."
The short ones apparently serve in many capacities, agreed.
"The problem here, as others have stated, is that once he's released the legal documentation, the nuts just say, "we don't think that's good enough for us"
But we're not facing the ridiculous step, we're facing the very simple step of looking at the document which could put 99% of the nutjobs to sleep. And they refuse to produce that document. If the ultimate document is produced, there's also the obvious "it's forged." But I think it's only at that point that it's reasonable to back off.
...and then we'e still left with the question of his mother's impossible flight schedule, and the hard-to-swallow necessity that they even let her fly in her advanced state.
Yes, angels & pinheads, but I think it's worth the excercise.
03/11/09
03/12/09
{sigh}
"I have said nothing about which party I belong to."
Strawman. No one said you did.
"You keep putting forward arguments that have been refuted over and over again"
Same argument, from different angles. Refuted? So what? Any jackass can refute anything; refutation is an activity, not a proof.
"Keep an open mind."
Abso-rootin-tootely.
"This is the same technique used by creationists, Holocaust deniers..."
As I was typing it did occur to me that it sounded exactly like the people you describe, but upon reflection I realized that it was only because those people have hijacked the sound and feel of genuine rhetoric.
"You can't even explain what is the importance of this without moving into vague apocalyptic threats like "fire and brimstone." "
The intent was to sear into brains the possibility that we are facing even an even more corrupt bunch than the previous one. It seems to have made an impression on even you, so it was at least mildly successful. I do regret using "fear" as motivator, but not too much considering the use to which I'm trying to put it.
"You have nothing to talk about."
It's clear that your issue is with me, not with the argument itself. Maybe my fault, but who cares... you're offensive. Go now and come back again as someone who is not.
03/10/09
Listen, would one of you incredibly intelligent people please answer a question for me?
Why has Obama hired several law firms and spent upwards of a million tax-payer dollars trying to hide a $15 birth certificate and his public domain passport information?
I've asked this in other forums but nobody seems to be able to come up with a reasonable answer. Anybody got any thoughts?
03/11/09
'Cause that would make you a troll.
03/10/09
If you think we've been delivered from evil, into the hands of the right and the true, you are in for some serious shocks in the coming weeks, months, and years. Goodbye frying pan, hello fire and brimstone, possibly. Let's open our minds a little to the possibility? Yes?
03/10/09
03/10/09
hoho: I'm not attacking you personally. Not attacking at all. I am a little taken aback by the unwillingness of others to continue to question their leadership. O is not sacred. If he comes through the guantlet of inquiry unscathed, so much the better. But to try to shut down inquiry? Come on.
You might not consider any questions of the citizenship valid at this point. I'm sure you've been following the story more closely than I have, because as I mentioned above, I rejected the whole thing up until now due to the seemingly obvious agendas of those that were pushing it. When I saw that the question of citizenship still hadn't been contained, at this late date, I became a lot more interested. A quick look revealed two specific items that haven't been resolved -- the flight and the refusal to release the full birth certificate. It could very well be that the law prevents even individuals from releasing their own information... I just don't know.
Please keep your mind truly open.
03/10/09
But I'm very skeptical about leadership. If he continues his acceptance of Bush's domestic spying and torture policies, I'll turn on him--and the Democratic Party--faster than you can say Prescott Bush was a Nazi financier.
But this? It never has been a legitimate issue after his campaign released his birth certificate.
03/10/09
(I'm at a different computer, my image-posting code is forgotten).
[thebruceblog.wordpress.com]
Between that and the copy of his birth certificate that he's already provided, how much more evidence do people need? A videotape of the actual birth with hula dancers?
03/11/09
It really would have been enough for me if he had just shown us the original or if the HI Supreme court hadn't shot down the request to see it. This is not a private person and I don't think elected officials should be protected with the same privacy rights.
03/11/09
[www.factcheck.org]
I think this is a red herring in the grand political scheme of things- there are more critical issues we need to address now with this presidency and the last. If they keep this on topic then the crimes of the last eight years seem to magically disappear- or so they are hoping.
The RNC prop up Alan Keyes to do their bidding so they can deny racism, but at the end of the day- evidence proves Obama is more of a native born American than McCain.
03/12/09
I know.. .we should have many more priorities than we do currently. Previous administration in jail should be one of them.