More Kurt Vonnegut Jr.: "America is the wealthiest nation on Earth, but its people are mainly poor, and poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the American humorist Kin Hubbard, 'It ain't no disgrace to be poor, but it might as well be.' It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: 'if you're so smart, why ain't you rich?' There will also be an American flag no larger than a child's hand - glued to a lollipop stick and flying from the cash register."
Tom Joad: I been thinking about us, too, about our people living like pigs and good rich land layin' fallow. Or maybe one guy with a million acres and a hundred thousand farmers starvin'. And I been wonderin' if all our folks got together and yelled...
Ma Joad: Oh, Tommy, they'd drag you out and cut you down just like they done to Casy.
Tom Joad: They'd drag me anyways. Sooner or later they'd get me for one thing if not for another. Until then...
Ma Joad: Tommy, you're not aimin' to kill nobody.
Tom Joad: No, Ma, not that. That ain't it. It's just, well as long as I'm an outlaw anyways... maybe I can do somethin'... maybe I can just find out somethin', just scrounge around and maybe find out what it is that's wrong and see if they ain't somethin' that can be done about it. I ain't thought it out all clear, Ma. I can't. I don't know enough.
Ma Joad: How am I gonna know about ya, Tommy? Why they could kill ya and I'd never know. They could hurt ya. How am I gonna know?
Tom Joad: Well, maybe it's like Casy says. A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody, then...
Ma Joad: Then what, Tom?
Tom Joad: Then it don't matter. I'll be all around in the dark - I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look - wherever there's a fight, so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Wherever there's a cop beatin' up a guy, I'll be there. I'll be in the way guys yell when they're mad. I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry and they know supper's ready, and when the people are eatin' the stuff they raise and livin' in the houses they build - I'll be there, too.
Ma Joad: I don't understand it, Tom.
Tom Joad: Me, neither, Ma, but - just somethin' I been thinkin' about.
So let me get this straight, We pay off the billionaires who bankrolled all of these bad loans to begin with, yep no problem whatsoever. But those same guys who already got payed are now upset that mortgage holders maybe getting a small break.
People will always be able to find anecdotal evidence about how a specific individual gamed the system, and people will always tell you how great and responsible and smart they are.
Face it! Due to a variety of reasons, not all of them being personal greed, a lot of honest hard working people got burned in this deal. I am for helping them out, just as I am for helping out people who are unemployed for a short amount of time.
The devil is of course in the details, but the facts remain. People, not millionaires, need help! Some of you where smarter, or in fact just luckier. Well good on you, you deserve a pat on the back, but these people for the good of our country need help.
To take the postion that nobody needs any help, and that we should just let everything rot, although in a weird way admirable on principle, is in practice, totally untenable.
Rick Santelli is not missing any meals, nor will he, his outrage and crocodile tears not withstanding.
@bigduke: "So let me get this straight, We pay off the billionaires who bankrolled all of these bad loans to begin with, yep no problem whatsoever. But those same guys who already got payed are now upset that mortgage holders maybe getting a small break."
Bingo! This post kinda goes along with the post about the rich being jerks.
The people whose bad decisions we should really be pissed off about are the brokers who wrote mortgages for unqualified borrowers that they didn't have to keep on their books or be accountable for in any way, the Wall Street bankers--our "best and brightest"--who packaged those mortgages and made billions peddling them to supposedly sophisticated institutional investors around the world, the ratings agencies who blessed these CDO's and other worthless paper with triple-A ratings when they were clearly junk, and the insanely greedy lawmakers who wrote Wall Street-favorable legislation knowing that once they got their ticket punched, they would be able to parachute out of their "public service" jobs and into a corner office on Park Avenue. The current mess we're in is the result of a massive and systemic failure of professionals at almost every level to do their fucking jobs.
The people I'm not pissed off at include low-income borrowers who suffered at the hands of predatory lenders and mortgage brokers, people who have lost their jobs and can't make their mortgage payments, people forced into medical bill bankruptcy, and pretty much anyone whose job was not overseeing our out-of-control financial services sector.
It was a quality-of-living conspiracy that worked for a while because of financial assets. Bankers were the engineers of false prosperity. Guess who we take the prosperity away from? The same people we gave it to. I suppose you can blame bankers for being well-compensated during this process. But can you blame them for creating the financial instruments? The thought was, "here's how we justify the creation of enough debt to fuel the lifestyle habits of lower-income and higher-risk borrowers." The whole thing blew up, but not because of the derivatives. It blew up because of the flawed assumption that we could keep creating wealth - and not just for ourselves! - by spreading risk.
@lawyergay: You forgot Freddie and Fannie. Their role in this mess can't be overlooked.
We shouldn't blame this on the poors but every borrower who took out a mortgage they couldn't afford (whether rich, middle class or poor) was complicit in the fraud.
@ADismalScience: As you know from our many previous exchanges on this topic, I am not buying what passes for your argument. You "suppose" that I and others unfairly blame bankers for being well-compensated during the housing bubble?
Just to be clear, I emphatically blame Wall Street bankers for creating an updraft of greed that prompted the people on the ground--the community banks and sleazy mortgage brokers--to lend to anyone who had a pulse. And, of course, let's just acknowledge that Lehman, Merrill and others bought their own mortgage origination outfits to capitalize on this supposed fountain of cash.
Furthermore, I submit to you that it was the outrageous bonuses on Wall Street--and the promise of even greater riches--that effectively created the housing bubble.
Now, I ask you, as someone who has clearly studied for, taken, and passed one or more NASD exams, don't you have some professional responsibilities when it comes to buying and selling securities? And if so, what happened there?
You clearly have inside knowledge. Prove me wrong.
The fact is, the ultimate purpose of these securities was to diffuse the risk for low-income and high-risk borrowers through tons of counterparties. The whole point of a CDO and the attendant ARS, CDS, etc. is to put tons of people at risk on the same underlying loans. Collectively, the thought was, banks and insurers all have enough capital in the event the underyling borrowers stop paying. The other thought was that you'd never see entire debt class collapses. This was, uhm, false, but it was based on the 99.99% scenario of the last several decades.
Did the promise of incentives create the bubble? Doubt it. We've got a billion other asset classes you can originate and sell for which you can be richly paid. The problem is it's much harder to create demand for, for example, options. Demand for mortages is always white hot; banks have to turn people away, and we as a nation approve drastically fewer apps than we receive today! The problem is that banks - and the Federal Government - thought they had found a way to increase the supply of credit without increasing risk.
You can't discount the unbelievable appetite for debt amongst your fellow Americans. This system, in addition to being a suddenly lucrative career for bankers, allowed risky borrowers access to assets they should never have been able to borrow enough to afford. Even worse, the knock-on effect is that it lowered the cost of capital, generally, for all borrowers. Money was drastically cheapened by the securitization process, and the supposed demand created by easy credit was the scaffolding upon which huge industries were built. It's no coincidence that homebuilders, retailers, consumer discretionary etc. are all collapsing - the demand-side these creations provided essentially allowed a huge part of our economy out of a massively risky bet on credit-backed assets.
We're moving to a rational world in credit markets, dreams shattered. But that world will not be a popular one! Keep in mind the so-called era of prudence we're so ready for involves the middle class enjoying a much lower standard of living - the boom, summarily, was based on the idea that your average American's earning power was ascendant. The grand deleverating of the debt based on that hope is going to suck, but not as badly as realizing that the last few years represented the zenith of the middle class's quality of life and political power, not the nadir. We're just getting started on that whole nadir bit.
FYI: I know what the mortgage-backed debt and all the derivatives that were written on top of them were meant to do. I'm actually more concerned about what they actually did, which was ruin our economy.
But more fundamentally, we seem to disagree on a basic issue. While you believe that it was the average American working Joe's appetite for debt that drove these excesses, I would like to suggest that it was the greed at the top of the food chain that led to the situation we now find ourselves in.
People can rage all they want about this whole situation being "communist" and "unfair" but Life isn't fair, it never has been, and it never will be. When will people realize that your neighbor's well-being affects your well-being? If you live next door to a foreclosed home it affects you. Your property value will decline even if you've paid off your house and made all the right decisions. When you neighbor can't afford to feed their children, it affects you because those kids will break into your house and steal from you. If we send people to prison with the intent to punish and not rehabilitate, those same criminals will come out worse than they went in and cause more damage. If you want to worry about yourself and yourself alone go live alone and not in society. For better or worse we're all in this together.
Someone needs to edumacate these traders on what happens to the value of your house when a bunch of similar houses on the same block are being sold by the bank for 70% of what you think yours is worth.
My concern is that the 52 million people who didn't vote for Obama become so outraged at his policies that the effectively neuter him during the 2010 elections, and the perception becomes that it became a mandate on race, thereby eliminating any social gains we have now come to see.
Honestly, I for one am pretty pissed to be paying for other people's bad decisions -- both the banks' and the homebuyers'. So it's kind of populist, in the sense of "most of us didn't make this mess and we don't want to pay to fix it".
@TheHonJudgeSmails: No, most of us didn't make this mess, but we're paying for it anyway. 69% of people in this country own their own homes and ALL OF THEM are losing value. It doesn't matter if you're responsible or not.
When one home on a block is foreclosed, it lowers the value of ALL THE OTHERS on the block as well. When this happens to every block in a town, it lowers the value of every home in the town. When it happens to every town in the country, it lowers the value of every home in the country.
And home value is money, just like stock market investments are money or bonds are money or t-bills are money. They are all investments that people are counting on to get them through retirement or whatever. So this matters.
I think what people like you need to stop doing is trying to figure out who to blame for all this and start thinking about how we fix it. Because it is affecting everyone now. Yes, including renters, because all those foreclosures mean banks are losing money, which means they don't have money to lend, which means businesses can't finance their debt, which means people get laid off, which means states pay more unemployment and health costs, which means there's less money for stuff like transit and schools and homeless shelters and roads and bridges. It's all tied together and it all starts with the housing market.
@TheHonJudgeSmails: I can understand that. We've spent the last eight years paying for Bush's bad decisions, and it doesn't look like we'll be done anytime soon. So irksome.
@Colonel Mustard: We're still paying for Bush's decisions. We probably won't ever be done paying for any of this but perhaps our grandkids might wrap it up for us.
@Colonel Mustard: I would argue that Bush's error was not working to beat back the federal legislation passed during Clinton's administration, where banks were incentivized to make risky home loans under the guise of driving up home ownership, as if it is some sort of unquestionable social good.
@badasscat: Think of Central New York as the control group in this little experiment. We didn't get to take part in the housing bubble because we didn't have any money to play with. So housing prices stayed stable. Right now, all our houses are appreciating in price at about the same rate as they always did - a couple of percent a year. Just ask our tax assessor.
@TheHonJudgeSmails: Torture, WMDs, The Iraq, Gitmo, Cheney, Patriot Act, Alberto Gonzalez, "Freedom Fries", "Bin Laden Determined To Attack Within The United States".
I'm outraged as well. Outraged at myself that I didn't get in on the sub-prime mortgage action when the getting was good. Stupid, stupid, stupid me with my fiscal responsibility.
I work at a museum, we had two end-of-the-year-gifts, two (when rich people talk to their accountant and realize they need to give something at the end of the year to offset taxes).
It's bad out there. Although our endowment (heh, heh) did pretty well.
Meanwhile, during the chorus, distracted traders failed to notice Frozen Concentrated Orange Juice futures contracts plummeted to a record low of "29"...
02/19/09
Santelli: Poor people are losers.
02/19/09
How about The Grapes of Wrath?
Tom Joad: I been thinking about us, too, about our people living like pigs and good rich land layin' fallow. Or maybe one guy with a million acres and a hundred thousand farmers starvin'. And I been wonderin' if all our folks got together and yelled...
Ma Joad: Oh, Tommy, they'd drag you out and cut you down just like they done to Casy.
Tom Joad: They'd drag me anyways. Sooner or later they'd get me for one thing if not for another. Until then...
Ma Joad: Tommy, you're not aimin' to kill nobody.
Tom Joad: No, Ma, not that. That ain't it. It's just, well as long as I'm an outlaw anyways... maybe I can do somethin'... maybe I can just find out somethin', just scrounge around and maybe find out what it is that's wrong and see if they ain't somethin' that can be done about it. I ain't thought it out all clear, Ma. I can't. I don't know enough.
Ma Joad: How am I gonna know about ya, Tommy? Why they could kill ya and I'd never know. They could hurt ya. How am I gonna know?
Tom Joad: Well, maybe it's like Casy says. A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody, then...
Ma Joad: Then what, Tom?
Tom Joad: Then it don't matter. I'll be all around in the dark - I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look - wherever there's a fight, so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Wherever there's a cop beatin' up a guy, I'll be there. I'll be in the way guys yell when they're mad. I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry and they know supper's ready, and when the people are eatin' the stuff they raise and livin' in the houses they build - I'll be there, too.
Ma Joad: I don't understand it, Tom.
Tom Joad: Me, neither, Ma, but - just somethin' I been thinkin' about.
02/19/09
People will always be able to find anecdotal evidence about how a specific individual gamed the system, and people will always tell you how great and responsible and smart they are.
Face it! Due to a variety of reasons, not all of them being personal greed, a lot of honest hard working people got burned in this deal. I am for helping them out, just as I am for helping out people who are unemployed for a short amount of time.
The devil is of course in the details, but the facts remain. People, not millionaires, need help! Some of you where smarter, or in fact just luckier. Well good on you, you deserve a pat on the back, but these people for the good of our country need help.
To take the postion that nobody needs any help, and that we should just let everything rot, although in a weird way admirable on principle, is in practice, totally untenable.
Rick Santelli is not missing any meals, nor will he, his outrage and crocodile tears not withstanding.
02/19/09
Bingo!
This post kinda goes along with the post about the rich being jerks.
02/19/09
The people I'm not pissed off at include low-income borrowers who suffered at the hands of predatory lenders and mortgage brokers, people who have lost their jobs and can't make their mortgage payments, people forced into medical bill bankruptcy, and pretty much anyone whose job was not overseeing our out-of-control financial services sector.
02/19/09
02/19/09
It was a quality-of-living conspiracy that worked for a while because of financial assets. Bankers were the engineers of false prosperity. Guess who we take the prosperity away from? The same people we gave it to. I suppose you can blame bankers for being well-compensated during this process. But can you blame them for creating the financial instruments? The thought was, "here's how we justify the creation of enough debt to fuel the lifestyle habits of lower-income and higher-risk borrowers." The whole thing blew up, but not because of the derivatives. It blew up because of the flawed assumption that we could keep creating wealth - and not just for ourselves! - by spreading risk.
02/19/09
We shouldn't blame this on the poors but every borrower who took out a mortgage they couldn't afford (whether rich, middle class or poor) was complicit in the fraud.
02/19/09
...or when he takes shits for hours at the Tontine Coffee House.
02/19/09
It was a quality of human beings conspiracy that continues to work because we have placed our national welfare in the hands of organized crime.
02/19/09
Just to be clear, I emphatically blame Wall Street bankers for creating an updraft of greed that prompted the people on the ground--the community banks and sleazy mortgage brokers--to lend to anyone who had a pulse. And, of course, let's just acknowledge that Lehman, Merrill and others bought their own mortgage origination outfits to capitalize on this supposed fountain of cash.
Furthermore, I submit to you that it was the outrageous bonuses on Wall Street--and the promise of even greater riches--that effectively created the housing bubble.
Now, I ask you, as someone who has clearly studied for, taken, and passed one or more NASD exams, don't you have some professional responsibilities when it comes to buying and selling securities? And if so, what happened there?
You clearly have inside knowledge. Prove me wrong.
02/19/09
The fact is, the ultimate purpose of these securities was to diffuse the risk for low-income and high-risk borrowers through tons of counterparties. The whole point of a CDO and the attendant ARS, CDS, etc. is to put tons of people at risk on the same underlying loans. Collectively, the thought was, banks and insurers all have enough capital in the event the underyling borrowers stop paying. The other thought was that you'd never see entire debt class collapses. This was, uhm, false, but it was based on the 99.99% scenario of the last several decades.
Did the promise of incentives create the bubble? Doubt it. We've got a billion other asset classes you can originate and sell for which you can be richly paid. The problem is it's much harder to create demand for, for example, options. Demand for mortages is always white hot; banks have to turn people away, and we as a nation approve drastically fewer apps than we receive today! The problem is that banks - and the Federal Government - thought they had found a way to increase the supply of credit without increasing risk.
You can't discount the unbelievable appetite for debt amongst your fellow Americans. This system, in addition to being a suddenly lucrative career for bankers, allowed risky borrowers access to assets they should never have been able to borrow enough to afford. Even worse, the knock-on effect is that it lowered the cost of capital, generally, for all borrowers. Money was drastically cheapened by the securitization process, and the supposed demand created by easy credit was the scaffolding upon which huge industries were built. It's no coincidence that homebuilders, retailers, consumer discretionary etc. are all collapsing - the demand-side these creations provided essentially allowed a huge part of our economy out of a massively risky bet on credit-backed assets.
We're moving to a rational world in credit markets, dreams shattered. But that world will not be a popular one! Keep in mind the so-called era of prudence we're so ready for involves the middle class enjoying a much lower standard of living - the boom, summarily, was based on the idea that your average American's earning power was ascendant. The grand deleverating of the debt based on that hope is going to suck, but not as badly as realizing that the last few years represented the zenith of the middle class's quality of life and political power, not the nadir. We're just getting started on that whole nadir bit.
02/20/09
FYI: I know what the mortgage-backed debt and all the derivatives that were written on top of them were meant to do. I'm actually more concerned about what they actually did, which was ruin our economy.
But more fundamentally, we seem to disagree on a basic issue. While you believe that it was the average American working Joe's appetite for debt that drove these excesses, I would like to suggest that it was the greed at the top of the food chain that led to the situation we now find ourselves in.
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
When one home on a block is foreclosed, it lowers the value of ALL THE OTHERS on the block as well. When this happens to every block in a town, it lowers the value of every home in the town. When it happens to every town in the country, it lowers the value of every home in the country.
And home value is money, just like stock market investments are money or bonds are money or t-bills are money. They are all investments that people are counting on to get them through retirement or whatever. So this matters.
I think what people like you need to stop doing is trying to figure out who to blame for all this and start thinking about how we fix it. Because it is affecting everyone now. Yes, including renters, because all those foreclosures mean banks are losing money, which means they don't have money to lend, which means businesses can't finance their debt, which means people get laid off, which means states pay more unemployment and health costs, which means there's less money for stuff like transit and schools and homeless shelters and roads and bridges. It's all tied together and it all starts with the housing market.
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
We probably won't ever be done paying for any of this but perhaps our grandkids might wrap it up for us.
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
02/19/09
12/27/08
12/24/08
It's bad out there. Although our endowment (heh, heh) did pretty well.
12/24/08
Meanwhile, during the chorus, distracted traders failed to notice Frozen Concentrated Orange Juice futures contracts plummeted to a record low of "29"...
12/24/08
12/24/08
12/25/08
12/24/08