So...if Roe v Wade is overturned, does that mean that the states the criminalize abortion are going to prosecute women for murder. If so, what are they going to recommend for the penalty? Same as other types of murder? Are they going to penalize women retroactively? So many questions.
From the AOL story link: Another worry in what she called "my moments of doubt" was whether she could love the child enough. "Believe it or not, I didn't even know what a baby with Down syndrome was going to look like or feel like." She found the subject hard to research, she said, and "I had to ask that my heart be filled up" with feeling for her unborn son.
That's riiight, Sarah. 'Cause your sister's special needs child was just a throw rug in your eyes until you had your own politically charged pregnancy, uh-huh.
I give her 6 months more in the spotlight before she takes herself down with such idiotic contrivances.
@PaisleyPajamas: She might have found that love within herself but, judging from the body language I saw (namely, the speed with which he pushed Trig away from his at every earliest opportunity) Todd did not. He also won't look at the kid.
@Mediahohoho: I noticed that too! Especially during the campaign! It's like, yo, First Dude? It's showtime. Pretend for the cameras, just like the wifey told you to.
I don't use the word "retard" pejoratively when speaking about Republicans any more because it's a really unfair brush with which to tar the cognitively impaired.
Anyhoo...I've always admired anyone who raises kids with Downs and others disabilities with love (my sister-in-law teaches a lot of kids who are abused in every possible way by their families), whether they knew that's what they were in for ahead of time or not.
But here's an issue you don't hear much discussion about from the anti-legal-abortion camp: what about the other chromosomal disorders (Trisomy 16 and 18, I think), that cruelly take your child within a couple of years. That, to me, seems like the much more difficult decision. Not only do you have the heartbreak, but the medical care required is such that, in this great land of ours, you are almost certain to be bankrupt for life when your kid dies.
Also, why does the anti-legal-abortion camp remain mum on in vitro fertilization, which creates "life" (in their definition, in order to discard it (but not for research, of course). Too many contradictions.
@Mediahohoho: What most people don't know is that it truly is a miracle when a Down's child is born: 90% to 95% of the pregnancies that are chromosomally abnormal and destined to be Down's (proven later through genetic testing of the miscarried fetus) do not make it to term.
All the twit had to say was that her OBGYN advised her to take an amnio because she was over 35. But give that woman a gun and she's happy to point at her own fool head.
If one is truly against abortion, as I think most everyone, including people who believe all women should have the right to make their own medical decisions, can we not just end this issue by making sure every female in this country has access to Plan B contraception and knows how to use it? My understanding is that it operates pretty much like other oral contraception in that it prevents implantation, so, other than Brother Pope and Company, I can't really see the objection.
I mean sure, it would sever the Republican party from its main reason for support among evangelicals. And it would remove the major source of fundraising ammo for the "Christian" "Right," but, aside from that, it just seems like the reasonable thing to do.
This is an old debate. Let's move on.
Also, speaking from experience, if you choose to procreate after a certain age and have attained an IQ above 90, you pretty much know Downs and other chromasonal abnormalities are a higher possibility and plan accordingly. My wife and I, both of whom have cousins with Downs, made the decision going in that we would raise whoever came our way. That "choice" was made before conception. But it was our choice.
@Mediahohoho: I mean sure, it would sever the Republican party from its main reason for support among evangelicals. And it would remove the major source of fundraising ammo for the "Christian" "Right,"
That pretty much answers that question. I keep running into a huge anti-contraception attitude, as well. My mother's church decided to tell her last year that birth control kills implanted embryos. Sure enough, science be damned, those parishioners were running around trying to convince us all to get off the pill. And these were not marginalized crazies. Just people who believed what came out of their corrupt pulpits. And considering the attitude a whole lot of us have faced buying Plan B, pharmacists think we're trash if we use it.
@Better to Eat You With: I had a bizarro-world discussion recently with a Fox News Fundamentalist who dropped the bombshell that he believes life begins at inception. I told him to be careful, because he was making his own God out to be quite the mass murderer.
But seriously, inception? I've known that the anti-birth-control tack is the anti-legal-abortion movement's next frontier. But really, are any women going to follow them there?
"The risk of Down syndrome increases from about 1 in 1,250 at age 25, to 1 in 1,000 at age 30, 1 in 400 at age 35, 1 in 100 at age 40 and 1 in 30 at age 45 (6). Women over age 35 have been traditionally considered most likely to have a baby with Down syndrome. However, about 80 percent of babies with Down syndrome are born to women who are under age 35, as younger women have far more babies (2)."
No stats here for teenagers, obviously, but there is clearly a real chance that they can have Downs babies. The fact that is is less frequent than it is for someone Sarah Palin's age does not mean it is impossible.
@major disaster: Good point. Actually, from what I read (and again, as a 40-something preggo, this is all too relevant to me), the reason that most Down syndrome babies are being born to 20 and young-30-something moms these days is because doctors don't push the amnio (read: insurance companies generally won't pay for it) until a woman is 35--the age when the incidence of miscarriage by amnio is less than the incidence of having a Down syndrome kid. But I'm sure you already knew that.
One point: God knows I can't stand Palin, and I'm pro-choice to the bone, but there are lots of reasons to have amniocentisis besides Downs (neural tube problems, for example). Lots of doc's recommend it for many pregnant women over 40.
I find her to be strange and vaguely evil (like that stupid, scary person evil, so dumb they hurt your DNA) on just every level imaginable. I still can't believe she was trotted out to be the Republican savior, like for serious. I'm truly disgusted that there are people in this country who haven't stood in her face and said, "You are an embarrassment. Please, go sit down, and do us all a favor and never, ever, speak again, you crazed, lying dipshit."
My sister considered an abortion when she found herself knocked up from a one night stand in her late 30's. She couldn't go through with it and now feels that abortion should not be available because it is a temptation. Oh, and she's a Republican. And we grew up in a trailer park. Okay, that's all.
@RheaPollstry: I got in a fight at the rehearsal dinner for a friend's wedding with said friend's sister because she said, "Abortion should be legal only for people who really need them, not, like, sluts who just want them." I took this to mean she had had one, but hers was totally cool, just not any other woman's.
@oudemia: Reminds me of a friend who went apeshit at the planned pregnancy of a mutual single friend of ours. Irresponsible, how's she going to raise the kid on her salary....and added "I mean, it would be OK if it had happened by accident..".
@RheaPollstry: See, I have heard this argument before and I always make the same point.
Making abortions illegal doesn't eliminate abortions - it just drives them underground. Being pro-choice often just means you favor of safe, legal abortions over the back alley, unsafe procedures of more ignorant times.
Making alcohol illegal didn't eliminate alcohol - it gave us bootlegging and related criminal activity. Pot and coke are illegal, but I can score either within the hour. Criminalizing abortion won't stop abortions, but it will render the procedure much more unsafe. If anyone is actually pro-life - that all lives are precious - then they should focus on providing alternatives, not on making the procedure more life-threatening.
@karion: I agree with everything you say. Well, not the part about scoring, because i'm too clueless, but the rest, definitely. No, criminalizing abortions won't make them go away, but it will make them much deadlier for the women who need them.
The problem with this line of reasons is...well...the word 'reason.' I suppose i could say that the anti-choice crowd is fundamentally unreasonable, and they might agree with that. So wrapped up in their notions of life and its dignity that they cannot focus on anything else, like the life and dignity of the mother, for example. If she's pregnant out of wedlock, she shouldn't be. If she seeks a back-alley abortion and gets septicemia or hemorrhages, then the wages of sin is death. or something.
You're trying to make a rational point with true-believers. And you can't.
04/18/09
04/17/09
04/17/09
pro choice = pro woman = pro family
04/17/09
That's riiight, Sarah. 'Cause your sister's special needs child was just a throw rug in your eyes until you had your own politically charged pregnancy, uh-huh.
I give her 6 months more in the spotlight before she takes herself down with such idiotic contrivances.
04/17/09
04/17/09
04/17/09
04/17/09
04/17/09
Anyhoo...I've always admired anyone who raises kids with Downs and others disabilities with love (my sister-in-law teaches a lot of kids who are abused in every possible way by their families), whether they knew that's what they were in for ahead of time or not.
But here's an issue you don't hear much discussion about from the anti-legal-abortion camp: what about the other chromosomal disorders (Trisomy 16 and 18, I think), that cruelly take your child within a couple of years. That, to me, seems like the much more difficult decision. Not only do you have the heartbreak, but the medical care required is such that, in this great land of ours, you are almost certain to be bankrupt for life when your kid dies.
Also, why does the anti-legal-abortion camp remain mum on in vitro fertilization, which creates "life" (in their definition, in order to discard it (but not for research, of course). Too many contradictions.
04/17/09
04/17/09
04/17/09
04/17/09
04/17/09
But give that woman a gun and she's happy to point at her own fool head.
04/17/09
04/17/09
I mean sure, it would sever the Republican party from its main reason for support among evangelicals. And it would remove the major source of fundraising ammo for the "Christian" "Right," but, aside from that, it just seems like the reasonable thing to do.
This is an old debate. Let's move on.
Also, speaking from experience, if you choose to procreate after a certain age and have attained an IQ above 90, you pretty much know Downs and other chromasonal abnormalities are a higher possibility and plan accordingly. My wife and I, both of whom have cousins with Downs, made the decision going in that we would raise whoever came our way. That "choice" was made before conception. But it was our choice.
04/17/09
That pretty much answers that question. I keep running into a huge anti-contraception attitude, as well. My mother's church decided to tell her last year that birth control kills implanted embryos. Sure enough, science be damned, those parishioners were running around trying to convince us all to get off the pill. And these were not marginalized crazies. Just people who believed what came out of their corrupt pulpits. And considering the attitude a whole lot of us have faced buying Plan B, pharmacists think we're trash if we use it.
04/17/09
But seriously, inception? I've known that the anti-birth-control tack is the anti-legal-abortion movement's next frontier. But really, are any women going to follow them there?
04/17/09
[www.marchofdimes.com]
"The risk of Down syndrome increases from about 1 in 1,250 at age 25, to 1 in 1,000 at age 30, 1 in 400 at age 35, 1 in 100 at age 40 and 1 in 30 at age 45 (6). Women over age 35 have been traditionally considered most likely to have a baby with Down syndrome. However, about 80 percent of babies with Down syndrome are born to women who are under age 35, as younger women have far more babies (2)."
No stats here for teenagers, obviously, but there is clearly a real chance that they can have Downs babies. The fact that is is less frequent than it is for someone Sarah Palin's age does not mean it is impossible.
04/17/09
04/17/09
04/17/09
Do you guys like me more?
04/17/09
04/17/09
04/17/09
04/17/09
04/17/09
04/17/09
***blushes, bats eyes***
04/17/09
Making abortions illegal doesn't eliminate abortions - it just drives them underground. Being pro-choice often just means you favor of safe, legal abortions over the back alley, unsafe procedures of more ignorant times.
Making alcohol illegal didn't eliminate alcohol - it gave us bootlegging and related criminal activity. Pot and coke are illegal, but I can score either within the hour. Criminalizing abortion won't stop abortions, but it will render the procedure much more unsafe. If anyone is actually pro-life - that all lives are precious - then they should focus on providing alternatives, not on making the procedure more life-threatening.
04/17/09
04/17/09
04/17/09
The problem with this line of reasons is...well...the word 'reason.' I suppose i could say that the anti-choice crowd is fundamentally unreasonable, and they might agree with that. So wrapped up in their notions of life and its dignity that they cannot focus on anything else, like the life and dignity of the mother, for example. If she's pregnant out of wedlock, she shouldn't be. If she seeks a back-alley abortion and gets septicemia or hemorrhages, then the wages of sin is death. or something.
You're trying to make a rational point with true-believers. And you can't.