It's been two years since I worked there and every single piece of news coming out of that ridiculous unaffordable building since then has been depressing.
Well, except for Pinch and Janet's 7-digit bonuses that exceed what is allowed by the company charter! Whee! #newyorktimes
Fuck them. That is even worse than shifting the jobs to underpaid interns, who at least had, you know, a step on the ladder, which is what newspapers did in the 80s, when they responded to declining circulation not by becoming better but by being more greedy and stupid, and the internet hadn't even been invented yet. #newyorktimes
NYers always seem to be pro-union, but such obscene gouging isn't a victimless crime -- the public pays for it (the same way that we pay for outlandish pensions for government employees, featherbedded trade union contracts for construction, etc.). This isn't like the "receptionist at Google" analogy -- the people subsidizing that are willingly buying Google stock, not the people performing searches.
But basically, can anyone out there say that making more than, say, $50K per year for manual labor is justified? We'd all like to pull down high salaries, but the world rewards people when exhibit scarce and valued skills. Wacky union contracts distort this by eliminating competition for jobs, as being a stagehand should be a fairly reproducible skill for which many people could vie. I received a quote today for a union paintjob -- painting two 10x12 walls in a union-regulated building would cost $2,000. I asked for a paintjob, not a blowjob. #carnegiehall
That article is misleading and uninformed at best, and more then a little insulting. Keep in mind a few things. First off, that number likely doesn't reflect what those guys take home, it reflects what the company spends on them, including union dues, pension contributions, medical, etc. Also the 5 peoe I'm sure their referring to aren't "manual labor"; they're the crew heads, which is a difficult and stressful job in a place like that. Also, those guys earn that by the hour, which at a place like the met, or Avery fisher, or the state, or Carnegie hall, means 14 hours a day, 6 days a week, 52 weeks a year, ALWAYS working every holiday. These guys literally give up their lives for that job, which I think is stupid, but it's not just 5 knuckle draggers making half a millon for moving music stands around.
@dromio47: Aw, you're right. That's worth a half mill. Actually, I'd bet a half mill that you could take a person of average intelligence and strength and train them to do any of these jobs in under and year and pay them under $100K. Legalized rape is what it is. #carnegiehall
Being a stagehand at Carnegie Hall, even with a small salary, would be a great job. Even with the hazards and annoyances of the job, it would be sublime to be able share the thrill of putting on the performances that Carnegie usually puts on.
@tijuanatornado: Really? In this day and age of corporate malfeasance, are you really going to play the, "woe is me I'm not being compensated appropriately for an overly inflated MBA (or insert any other continuing ed degree here)" card?
Logging time in a classroom doesn't automatically entitle anyone to anything other than a degree and it certainly doesn't make anyone more qualified than the next in the workplace. #carnegiehall
@kappakappaspankme: Take the easy road and blame it all on corporate malfeasance and MBAs, what a shortsighted view on life you have.
If you'd done your homework you'd know that this mess started brewing since Clinton was in office and guilt stretches from him, all the way to Bush and Congress. They all had a hand into this mess. Not forgetting a lot of corporations and individual Americans.
Finally. The point I made was to say that education AND hard work, should be what defines compensation, not a union contract.
Are you telling me that a Ph.D. in Physics, an M.D., an Engineer, a teacher, that works 14-16 hrs a day and develops a new technology, idea or service that improves the health, wealth or well being of millions of Americans should earn less than a stagehand? #carnegiehall
@tijuanatornado: No. Kappa is saying that your examples have shittier unions! Ha!
I know of PhDs, MDs, and engineers earning half a mil in salary + book revenue + appearances + royalties from R&D/products/inventions!
I know plenty of stagehands who do have a college education in addition to what they learned apprenticing.
Why is practical education shunned by parts of the business world? Are you upset you're cube rats? Upset you're not billionaires like Babson or Susquehanna promised you would be? Intimidated by men who know how to create/fix things of consequence? Pissed that you gotta pay the union guys anytime you need anything done?
Unions were organizations with a mighty and powerful reach long before Pres. Clinton. It's all in what the market will bear, baby.
@riggssm: I agree--stage hands are rather educated now days, in most cases. I have 69K in Undergrad debt from a conservatory education to prove it. That said, best money I made in college was working props for operas. More goes into it than manual labor. It takes a lot of technical know how and creativity, including the occasional feat of engineering, both mechanical and electrical. I got out of it (in part cos I couldn't hack the MATH involved) and moved on to some other really awesome life-things where I still use that education every day.
Everyone thinks a theater education is a "blowoff" degree, but I think it makes you a jack of all trades. I also think it's lead to my success in other areas. I can think outside of the box, and I am willing to put in long days doing WHATEVER needs to be done to make my project a success, even if it's below my paygrade. You can't whine that it was someone else's job, etc when there's a show to put on. Even if it IS, you do what needs to be done, then deal with the person not pulling their weight later, after the curtain goes down which is a lesson I think would really serve a lot of people in the "real" world.
I think those guys earn every ounce of that pay check, and I know they're probably paid hourly, which is why they're earning a zillion dollars. If my own experiences of putting in 10 or 12 hours at the theater AFTER spending all day in class is any indication, these guys are practically living in that theater and are busting their butts. #carnegiehall
As a member of IATSE (local 798 hair and Make-up), I can honestly say that we are one of the most protected unions in the entertainment industry. Our benefits are strong, our contracts are bullet proof. But also keep in mind that crew workers tend to work upwards of 16-18 hours a day in extremely stressful environments. So while I understand that half a mil sounds like a lot, it's because we give up 50% of our day to do our jobs. Another factor is the danger aspect. We work around heavy equipment, open electric, bitchy actors, yada yada yada. It's very dangerous. #carnegiehall
Look - you're getting paid to do a specialized task. Awesome. But you're also devouring charitable contributions, also known as private bailouts. From Bloomberg News:
Carnegie Hall had an operating shortfall of $40.2 million in 2007-2008. After including funds from donors, investment income and government grants, the hall ended the season with a $1.9 million surplus.
That's fine; that's your hustle. But I'd better not hear a word out of a Carnegie stagehand about the injustice of banker bonuses. Uniquely, I was a college actor/stagehand/stage manager/AD that wound up in banking, and I know the small-ball version of that job. We both know that 500K is a lot of money, and that if society is to judge one salary it must judge them all. #carnegiehall
@Unsolicited Advice: But it's not IATSE who took handouts, it's Carnegie Hall. The stage hands don't fall under a contract that Carnegie wrote, they fall under a contract that IATSE wrote which Carnegie agreed to. Can't judge a unionized stagehand for adhering to his contract, he has no other choice.
I agree that 500K is a lot of money, and I would be lying if I said I came even close to making that amount despite my iron clad contract . However, blue collar or white these are some of the most coveted positions in the industry. People work for decades and sleep with all sorts of unsavory higher ups in order to attain a stage gig in New York. And I'm not really sure that boiling it down to "the guys who haul pianos and music stands" is giving the job enough credit. #carnegiehall
I don't think most people worth a damn get enough credit for their work, I really don't. But society's all pitchforks-and-chants over salary these days, and the purpose of the Carnegie bit is to make it clear that people in all walks of life make "too much." Judging salary is something that's done poorly and reflexively by our populist media. #carnegiehall
@BrookGlen: And while I'm standing up here- Why is Bloomberg outing the Art director? Do you have any idea how difficult that job is? It's an above the line gig. Shall we spare the million dollar gigs for people who majored in math and business? #carnegiehall
@BrookGlen: Good on ya! One of the reasons I left the industry, even tho I was doing fairly good for myself, was the personalities. Personalities alone entitle you to hazardous duty pay ;) And honestly--if performers can make eleventy-billiondy dollars, shouldn't crew see some portion of that? Crew makes the performer's job possible. Try singing in the dark or acting without a microphone ;) #carnegiehall
@CaptainFantastic: This isn't a conversation about how much you or other people SHOULD be making, this is a conversation about how much 5 people in one building are making, and whether or not they are worth their weight. And I'm trying to point out that this isn't just a gig where fat hillbillies unfold stacking chairs and set up a refreshment table. It is an actual career that requires intimate knowledge of a very intricate industry in a very stressful climate.
Seriously, we complain when some asshole bigwig at an American car company flies around in a private jet, yet we can't seem to justify it when someone working a seemingly blue "collar" gig brings in a little cash. I say bully for him, we could use a little more balance like that in this ass backwards country of ours. #carnegiehall
Are you for some reason uncertain about drawing the conclusion that organized labor is effective? Despite your own (most likely illegal) classification as a "freelancer," despite your full-time work hours? #carnegiehall
Ok, this is a little misleading. The average of the full-time stage crew is $430,543, according to that article. There are, apparently, only four full-time crew members at Carnegie. Obviously that is not the full staff required for any given concert. I assume the people actually doing the brunt of the manual labor are not full-time and are certainly not getting paid triple digits.
daveyjonesisdead promoted this comment
Edited by Crustaceans Rarely Get Past Me at 10/21/09 5:20 PM
Crustaceans Rarely Get Past Me was starred
Crustaceans Rarely Get Past Me was unstarred
Login
Enter your username and password.
Reset Password
Please enter your email address to have your password reset.
Register
Registering will give you a user profile and the ability to add other users as friends. To become a commenter, however, you need to audition.
11/13/09
Well, except for Pinch and Janet's 7-digit bonuses that exceed what is allowed by the company charter! Whee! #newyorktimes
11/13/09
10/28/09
NYers always seem to be pro-union, but such obscene gouging isn't a victimless crime -- the public pays for it (the same way that we pay for outlandish pensions for government employees, featherbedded trade union contracts for construction, etc.). This isn't like the "receptionist at Google" analogy -- the people subsidizing that are willingly buying Google stock, not the people performing searches.
But basically, can anyone out there say that making more than, say, $50K per year for manual labor is justified? We'd all like to pull down high salaries, but the world rewards people when exhibit scarce and valued skills. Wacky union contracts distort this by eliminating competition for jobs, as being a stagehand should be a fairly reproducible skill for which many people could vie. I received a quote today for a union paintjob -- painting two 10x12 walls in a union-regulated building would cost $2,000. I asked for a paintjob, not a blowjob. #carnegiehall
10/22/09
10/28/09
10/22/09
10/21/09
So I guess studying through college, grad school and working your butt off for 10-12-14 hours a day 5-6 days a week does not merit 500K a year?
I'm sure we need 500K a year stagehands to invent, develop, lead and make the country a better place for all. #carnegiehall
10/21/09
Logging time in a classroom doesn't automatically entitle anyone to anything other than a degree and it certainly doesn't make anyone more qualified than the next in the workplace. #carnegiehall
10/21/09
If you'd done your homework you'd know that this mess started brewing since Clinton was in office and guilt stretches from him, all the way to Bush and Congress. They all had a hand into this mess. Not forgetting a lot of corporations and individual Americans.
Finally. The point I made was to say that education AND hard work, should be what defines compensation, not a union contract.
Are you telling me that a Ph.D. in Physics, an M.D., an Engineer, a teacher, that works 14-16 hrs a day and develops a new technology, idea or service that improves the health, wealth or well being of millions of Americans should earn less than a stagehand? #carnegiehall
10/21/09
I know of PhDs, MDs, and engineers earning half a mil in salary + book revenue + appearances + royalties from R&D/products/inventions!
I know plenty of stagehands who do have a college education in addition to what they learned apprenticing.
Why is practical education shunned by parts of the business world? Are you upset you're cube rats? Upset you're not billionaires like Babson or Susquehanna promised you would be? Intimidated by men who know how to create/fix things of consequence? Pissed that you gotta pay the union guys anytime you need anything done?
Unions were organizations with a mighty and powerful reach long before Pres. Clinton. It's all in what the market will bear, baby.
(President Clinton? Really?) #carnegiehall
10/21/09
10/22/09
Everyone thinks a theater education is a "blowoff" degree, but I think it makes you a jack of all trades. I also think it's lead to my success in other areas. I can think outside of the box, and I am willing to put in long days doing WHATEVER needs to be done to make my project a success, even if it's below my paygrade. You can't whine that it was someone else's job, etc when there's a show to put on. Even if it IS, you do what needs to be done, then deal with the person not pulling their weight later, after the curtain goes down which is a lesson I think would really serve a lot of people in the "real" world.
I think those guys earn every ounce of that pay check, and I know they're probably paid hourly, which is why they're earning a zillion dollars. If my own experiences of putting in 10 or 12 hours at the theater AFTER spending all day in class is any indication, these guys are practically living in that theater and are busting their butts. #carnegiehall
10/21/09
Who would you rather got the dough?
Goldman Sachs?
Or Carnegie Hall? #carnegiehall
10/21/09
10/21/09
So do plenty of bankers.
Look - you're getting paid to do a specialized task. Awesome. But you're also devouring charitable contributions, also known as private bailouts. From Bloomberg News:
Carnegie Hall had an operating shortfall of $40.2 million in 2007-2008. After including funds from donors, investment income and government grants, the hall ended the season with a $1.9 million surplus.
That's fine; that's your hustle. But I'd better not hear a word out of a Carnegie stagehand about the injustice of banker bonuses. Uniquely, I was a college actor/stagehand/stage manager/AD that wound up in banking, and I know the small-ball version of that job. We both know that 500K is a lot of money, and that if society is to judge one salary it must judge them all. #carnegiehall
10/21/09
I agree that 500K is a lot of money, and I would be lying if I said I came even close to making that amount despite my iron clad contract . However, blue collar or white these are some of the most coveted positions in the industry. People work for decades and sleep with all sorts of unsavory higher ups in order to attain a stage gig in New York. And I'm not really sure that boiling it down to "the guys who haul pianos and music stands" is giving the job enough credit. #carnegiehall
10/21/09
I don't think most people worth a damn get enough credit for their work, I really don't. But society's all pitchforks-and-chants over salary these days, and the purpose of the Carnegie bit is to make it clear that people in all walks of life make "too much." Judging salary is something that's done poorly and reflexively by our populist media. #carnegiehall
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/22/09
10/22/09
10/22/09
10/22/09
Seriously, we complain when some asshole bigwig at an American car company flies around in a private jet, yet we can't seem to justify it when someone working a seemingly blue "collar" gig brings in a little cash. I say bully for him, we could use a little more balance like that in this ass backwards country of ours. #carnegiehall
10/22/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
-- Pack this. #carnegiehall
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09