Also, I can't believe nobody's bringing up the fact that Joan said something about how she was happy she wasn't going to have to deal with it all for much longer (or at least I think she said something to that effect???). Last season she seemed pretty confident she was going to remain at her job, and at one point Roger tells her she'll leave sooner or later, but she kind of smiles it off.
Though no fault of the actors, I can never get beyond the fact that they’re playing archetypes, not characters – the handsome cad, the buxom secretary, the weaselly brown-noser, the closeted homosexual, etc. It’s like the cast of "Real World 1963."
@♥Anti-SocialSocialite♥: Yeah, I mean I consider that one of the strengths of the show. Though all of them represent some kind of archetypal character, they're hardly just walking concepts. They're fully fleshed out individuals, and I have to figure lots of people agree with that or the show wouldn't be as praised as it is.
@DaeSu: Archetypes have resonance. They are all human traits, or types, that persist throughout history, recur in new forms. It's the way these archetypes are developed, detailed, differentiated by the writing, that makes them interesting.
Isn't every character in film and drama some sort of recognizable archetype?
According to Weiner, it was a happy accident that Joan got the Brit guy in trouble with the office. "Joan submits to Hooker; she ends up screwing him over, which is fun, but in my mind, it's accidental."
Okay, I'm doin a five things that infuriated me about last night's Mad Men.
1) The strange surreal artsy pacing of the whole episode. Pffftt! I get it. It's a hot show, critically acclaimed for being deeper and more prophetic than most of the TV pap. Grrreaattt. This does not mean I need performance art, hot-milk, twangy, flashbacks. I'm becoming bored with the obvious, "Don Draper isn't who you think he is" storyline. Got it. Noted. Either let someone find out who matters, or stop with the campfire stories.
2) No Peggy or Pete interaction. Not even a blip of, "Hey, you're my baby daddy, what do we do now?" water cooler awkwardness? Just some meanderings about Peggy having a secretary, and still no one likes her, and her ever worsening clothes/hair/attitude.
3) Pete and Crosgrove, yah, yah. Whatever. Two yahoos who generally suck will prove which one sucks the least or the best or something.
4) Hello, the Joan rape thing. Yes, I know that they'll probably get to it, and it was genius how they slipped it into last season almost imperceptibly so, but I need resolution on that. I get it that it was the 60's and women were, uh, wombs with mascara, but dang I need it not be like a Tuesday, "I bought Ovaltine, was raped, watched Ed Sullivan...."
5) Betty, oh Betty. Don told that stewardess that "he'd been there and done that" and then proceeded to "do that" again. Personally, I need his reason to cheat to be a little more substantial. I thought the stewardess thing was cheap. Blonde stewardess + Draper = Will bone. Now if he and Sal shared a liplock...that would have been something. Turn this show upside down again, I say! Heh.
1. Since Don basically never reveals anything about himself, the flashbacks are one of the only ways we get to learn about him. Granted, we kind of knew about the stuff we saw in flashbacks in this episode, but it sure added some color! "I'm gonna cut off your dick and boil it in hog fat" is totally my new favorite thing to say. I don't think it's so much about him keeping a big secret anymore as it is about developing the character. The pacing thing..I dunno..I don't really have a problem with how they're doing it.
2. It was only the FIRST episode. We have an entire season for them duke it out. Much like the way 2nd season started, Weiner is only just setting the stage for the season to come in the first episode. Certain loose ends may not be picked up until midway through the season (though I don't think that'll be the case with Pete and Peggy).
3. I dunno what to say here. I like Ken, and I think it's great that he'll potentially be more of a focus this season. Also, as much of a jerk as Pete is, I think he's a great character too. I look forward to seeing how this storyline develops.
4. There's no way this WON'T be addressed in some way. Patience! ;)
5. Oh come on! A little more substantial? The man's a horndog! He was drunk! I get what you're saying is that the setup was just kind of too easy, but I didn't think it was so out of line with who Don is.
Now, about that Sal/Don lip lock.. Yummmmmms! Hahahaha. Have you been writing Mad Men fan fiction??? ;)
@Spirit Fingers: Patience, my dear. I'm sure we will be seing a lot of these things.
FWIW, I thought that "Don's imagining his birth" was a bit much, too. But it was over soon enough.
And I don't think you're giving Don credit for his reluctance, or the stewardess being quite forward that she desired him.
And she wasn't just some object; I thought her Southern accent, her conversation with Don, sort of charming. She wasn't anonymous; it was a small part but I felt she was playing a character with some definition. Sexy stewardess really was a clichè then, I understand. But it was true for some, and I thought she had some personality to her, myself.
@RonMwangaguhunga: Because Roger knows Pete is a sniveling shit. If the decision were his (which they are highlighting that it is no longer), he would've never fired the other guy and promoted Pete and Cosgrove, and by denying him Stoli, he's reminding Pete of that. The only reason Pete was there to begin with was by happenstance--he walked in just as the big boys were congregating for their 4pm cocktails. Also, Stoli was a rare item back then, so it was precious stuff.
@RonMwangaguhunga: Didn't Sterling say he picked it up as contraband or something like that during his honeymoon in Greece? Maybe Stoli wasn't being imported then at the height of the Cold War.
All I would give Pete is a kick in the ass. No ice.
Did anyone else get the vibe that Don's "Limit Your Exposure"-slogan was a subtle way of telling Sal that he doesn't care about his homosexual relationships as long as he keeps them hidden?
Hey, I might have had a gimlet too many last night and missed something. Has Roger Sterling married Jane, and honeymooned in Greece? Cause I didn't think Mona was going to let him off so easy.
Weiner has recently said that Roger has returned from his honeymoon in Greece and that Joan is now wearing a wedding ring. (If you look closely you can see it). We can assume that they did not marry each other, though I am still holding out hope.
@scarcat: one of the most predatory scenes on the show was Roger getting Jane to give up her address. Afterwards, he says with dead, jackal eyes, that he'll remember because it's: ".. Jane on Jane Street."
@RonMwangaguhunga: *shudders* indeed.
But I wonder. Jane is no innocent. Will it be the Trophy Wife or the Daughter, who drove one suitor to suicide, who will lure him in and lock the cage on his eternal Hell ?
I don't think Sal has to confide at all. Don is very good at keeping secrets. More likely is that Sal will manage to reproduce with his wife or something as he gets more panicky.
@Carol Gardens: "Limit your exposure". Loved that subtle bit of veiled advice to Sal. Don clearly understands double lives. But I don't think we'll see Sal making some big coming out scene, especially not to Don. A lot of impressions that the bellhop was Sal's first gay encounter. He may continue to explore that, but very discreetly.
@Carol Gardens: Good call on the pregnancy. I think Sal learned from Don that the important thing is to keep your secret and not get caught - "Don't be overexposed." He's not going to confide in Don! He's no Pete Camppbell.
@Excusado: Also, it came up in the meeting with London Fog, which made me immediately think that they were foreshadowing something about Sal's story arc. "Do you have a family?" Nope, but I'll bet money at this point that he knocks Kitty up before the season is over.
@Carol Gardens: I agree. If Sal even tried to confide in Don he would be cut off before he uttered a word. All he would get is more cryptic advice to live a lie.
Its what is great about Don. On the one hand he is more accepting both of Sal now and Peggy (and the baby) last season. ON the other hand he is telling them to create the untenable and insane double life that keeps crashing in on him. Don gives advice that helps people survive in this crazy superficial world. But on a deeper level its such an awful way to live.
Totally stealing from the NY Times here, but the best plot points for this season will hinge from real-life events and how the characters react to them - 1963 brings the Beatles, MLK's March, and JFK's assassination. And yes, funny hats.
I didn't interpret it as Joan's brushing Peggy off. I think Joan agreed with Peggy in her own Joan-way--especially when she cut Money Penny down a few pegs without getting her hands dirty. I think they're thorny allies.
@Failsafe: There was a little bit of frost though. Joan says, "I'm not at work yet".
She clearly doesn't consider Peggy a pal. Joan is happy in a way for Peggy's rise, but she's a girl that respects hierarchies.
And oh, she was great with Moneypenny (and yes, I'm calling him that!)
@Failsafe: I agree. Joan is Joan, and if you notice, she addresses one of Peggy's complaints specifically when she gives Moneypenny his new office, and informs him he'll have his own girl, so he's not taking manhours away from others.
@Failsafe: Joan may have been cool but she was certainly not more dismissive of Peggy than she would be of a man in Peggy's position. In fact, most of the men in Peggy's pay grade wouldn't have the balls to complain to Joan. Only senior men like Don could do that.
Plus her breaking and calling Moneypenny insufferable was a moment of confiding in Peggy.
If Paul Kinsey had been the one to complain there would be a lot more frost. And last season when Harry needed help (which Roger ordered) she was at first cold and refused to waste her girls time before she decided it was interesting and took it on herself. Everyone under executive level is scared shitless of Joan and for good reason. And Peggy is treated like everyone else.
@Sproing: I was also kind of hoping he and his (business) partner would be back. Maybe Martinson Coffee was the only campaign they were going to work on?
I thoroughly enjoyed last night's episode. I never thought I'd say this, but I'd really like to be best friends with the charmingly bitchy and supremely confident Peggy Olsen 2.0. Especially if it meant she'd let me do something about those hideous bangs.
@DahlELama: Yes! She was spouting the witty one-liners like a true rising star of a copywriter (not account exec, Brian!). She's got some righteous, single-minded ambition going on and I think it's going to translate into a bitchtastic warpath very soon. Flirting and distracted secretary, watch out.
The weirdness of his commercials give me hope that the shows will not shy away from being silly at the earlier timeslot.
Shows like The Office, 30 Rock, and Parks & Recreation being part of NBC's lineup also give me hope that they are realizing that the younger generation that is becoming a larger segment of their late night viewing enjoy the silliness.
I have a soft spot for the Satellite TV Channel Bit. I highly doubt that we will ever see anything as strange, horrifying and enchanting as Potato Judge ever again.
08/17/09
08/17/09
08/17/09
08/17/09
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08/17/09
Isn't every character in film and drama some sort of recognizable archetype?
We're all wearing masks, DaeSu!
08/17/09
08/17/09
[www.nj.com]
08/17/09
1) The strange surreal artsy pacing of the whole episode. Pffftt! I get it. It's a hot show, critically acclaimed for being deeper and more prophetic than most of the TV pap. Grrreaattt. This does not mean I need performance art, hot-milk, twangy, flashbacks. I'm becoming bored with the obvious, "Don Draper isn't who you think he is" storyline. Got it. Noted. Either let someone find out who matters, or stop with the campfire stories.
2) No Peggy or Pete interaction. Not even a blip of, "Hey, you're my baby daddy, what do we do now?" water cooler awkwardness? Just some meanderings about Peggy having a secretary, and still no one likes her, and her ever worsening clothes/hair/attitude.
3) Pete and Crosgrove, yah, yah. Whatever. Two yahoos who generally suck will prove which one sucks the least or the best or something.
4) Hello, the Joan rape thing. Yes, I know that they'll probably get to it, and it was genius how they slipped it into last season almost imperceptibly so, but I need resolution on that. I get it that it was the 60's and women were, uh, wombs with mascara, but dang I need it not be like a Tuesday, "I bought Ovaltine, was raped, watched Ed Sullivan...."
5) Betty, oh Betty. Don told that stewardess that "he'd been there and done that" and then proceeded to "do that" again. Personally, I need his reason to cheat to be a little more substantial. I thought the stewardess thing was cheap. Blonde stewardess + Draper = Will bone. Now if he and Sal shared a liplock...that would have been something. Turn this show upside down again, I say! Heh.
08/17/09
1. Since Don basically never reveals anything about himself, the flashbacks are one of the only ways we get to learn about him. Granted, we kind of knew about the stuff we saw in flashbacks in this episode, but it sure added some color! "I'm gonna cut off your dick and boil it in hog fat" is totally my new favorite thing to say. I don't think it's so much about him keeping a big secret anymore as it is about developing the character. The pacing thing..I dunno..I don't really have a problem with how they're doing it.
2. It was only the FIRST episode. We have an entire season for them duke it out. Much like the way 2nd season started, Weiner is only just setting the stage for the season to come in the first episode. Certain loose ends may not be picked up until midway through the season (though I don't think that'll be the case with Pete and Peggy).
3. I dunno what to say here. I like Ken, and I think it's great that he'll potentially be more of a focus this season. Also, as much of a jerk as Pete is, I think he's a great character too. I look forward to seeing how this storyline develops.
4. There's no way this WON'T be addressed in some way. Patience! ;)
5. Oh come on! A little more substantial? The man's a horndog! He was drunk! I get what you're saying is that the setup was just kind of too easy, but I didn't think it was so out of line with who Don is.
Now, about that Sal/Don lip lock.. Yummmmmms! Hahahaha. Have you been writing Mad Men fan fiction??? ;)
08/17/09
FWIW, I thought that "Don's imagining his birth" was a bit much, too. But it was over soon enough.
And I don't think you're giving Don credit for his reluctance, or the stewardess being quite forward that she desired him.
And she wasn't just some object; I thought her Southern accent, her conversation with Don, sort of charming. She wasn't anonymous; it was a small part but I felt she was playing a character with some definition. Sexy stewardess really was a clichè then, I understand. But it was true for some, and I thought she had some personality to her, myself.
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08/17/09
08/17/09
08/18/09
All I would give Pete is a kick in the ass. No ice.
08/17/09
08/17/09
08/17/09
Weiner has recently said that Roger has returned from his honeymoon in Greece and that Joan is now wearing a wedding ring. (If you look closely you can see it). We can assume that they did not marry each other, though I am still holding out hope.
08/17/09
*shudders*
08/17/09
But I wonder. Jane is no innocent. Will it be the Trophy Wife or the Daughter, who drove one suitor to suicide, who will lure him in and lock the cage on his eternal Hell ?
08/17/09
08/17/09
08/17/09
08/17/09
08/17/09
08/17/09
08/18/09
Its what is great about Don. On the one hand he is more accepting both of Sal now and Peggy (and the baby) last season. ON the other hand he is telling them to create the untenable and insane double life that keeps crashing in on him. Don gives advice that helps people survive in this crazy superficial world. But on a deeper level its such an awful way to live.
He will have a little Sal.
08/17/09
[www.nytimes.com]
08/17/09
08/17/09
08/17/09
She clearly doesn't consider Peggy a pal. Joan is happy in a way for Peggy's rise, but she's a girl that respects hierarchies.
And oh, she was great with Moneypenny (and yes, I'm calling him that!)
08/17/09
08/18/09
Plus her breaking and calling Moneypenny insufferable was a moment of confiding in Peggy.
If Paul Kinsey had been the one to complain there would be a lot more frost. And last season when Harry needed help (which Roger ordered) she was at first cold and refused to waste her girls time before she decided it was interesting and took it on herself. Everyone under executive level is scared shitless of Joan and for good reason. And Peggy is treated like everyone else.
08/17/09
08/17/09
08/17/09
08/17/09
Crabby Peggy is delightful -- I so hope she is going to give that twatty secretary of hers regular verbal spankings.
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08/17/09
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08/17/09
06/01/09
Shows like The Office, 30 Rock, and Parks & Recreation being part of NBC's lineup also give me hope that they are realizing that the younger generation that is becoming a larger segment of their late night viewing enjoy the silliness.
06/01/09
06/01/09
06/01/09
ASS!