How do people with modest incomes become Scientologists? How can anyone claim this organization isn't a total money-making scam, when one can literally not learn anything about its "values" without spending thousands of dollars? The very basic levels of Scientology courses are around $100 each, and there are a dozen of them. Each set of courses must be completed before moving on to the next level, where they become even more expensive. It is estimated that those who have reached the highest levels have shelled out about $350,000 in course fees alone, not counting auditing fees, costs of things like e-meters ($5k), etc.
There are a million reasons why Scientology is ridiculous, but this is patently absurd, offensive, and blatant in its elitism and lack of integrity. If one were seriously interested in becoming a member and devoting their lives to Scientology, but could not afford to take even the most basic of courses, would they be turned away at their initial consultation? Would they be squeezed for whatever they - or their family - had of value? Under what grounds will they find as a reason to deny someone admission, as surely someone cannot join if they cannot afford to be a member? Only the wealthy can afford to be swindled out of this much money in the first place. #scientology
@hot_kachina: I assume they chase after rich, Hollywood types so they can keep the money rolling in. However, I remember reading a story about a former member who said that regular folk can "volunteer" themselves to do manual labor in exchange for Church services. They build, cook, clean and staff the centers. They essentially become indentured servants. I also remember reading a Roger Friedman article reporting on how Isaac Hayes had to perform up to his dying day even after suffering his first stroke just to continuing paying for Scientology services. His income stream was also severely curtailed after the Church forced him to quit voicing Chef on South Park. The point is that in the end, the Church finds a way to get their money. #scientology
@heywhat: I recall reading something quite similar: that the Co$ puts the obligation into a contract. If the "regular person" wants out, he owes vast quantities of dough. This is what sets Scientology apart from "normal" religions, and that includes the LDS; only Scientology requires cash on the barrelhead for salvation. #scientology
@hot_kachina: Hubbard saw celebrities as marketing vehicles not really a source of revenue. From what I've read, it looks like the "volunteer" labor is significant. #scientology
My love-hate relationship with France continues. This is definitely on the Love side. My favorite French moment was the Sarkozy jogging scandal that infuriated France. They were debating this !This is while we weren't even saying shit about Bush's many illegal,unconstitutional,immoral, and just plain dumb acts.
As much as I'd love to see Scientology disappear forever, the number of people who line up to give their minds and money over to scams (and the very best twist them around 'God' and other belief systems) will always be abundant and fresh for the picking. If it's not Scientology, then it's Benny Hinn, Rev. Moon, ect., ect., ect.
There really is a sucker born every minute. #scientology
@saa: True, but you can start by picking off the biggest hitters first. Scientology as a church is just ridiculously brazen and arrogant and lawless and are just begging to have their muckety mucks thrown into an iron cell next to Bubba. Fuck em. #scientology
@Botswana Meat Commission FC: I agree. First step is to declassify it as a 'religion'. Someone needs to do a major expose documentary on this dangerous and abusive cult. #scientology
So I've been accidentally getting one of my neighbors' mail for a while now, and the mail that I am getting is all Scientology-themed. Yesterday I got the holiday catalog. Do you know how much a freaking e-meter costs? Like five grand! Good on the French for cracking down on L.Ron's giant scam. #scientology
@sarrible: ok its 5 grand, but you have to remember that it employs so much innovative and useful technology, 5 grand is a bargain. Oh wait...the opposite of that. #scientology
@sarrible: Must.Get. My.Hands.On.That.Catalog.
Seriously, fuck the Neiman Christmas catalog, I need to see this shit. Can you pleaaaaaase post it somewhere, how many colors does it come in? Are we talking primal colors or does it get it funky? Is there a sleeve like for iPods? How big is it? Are there different e-meters or a one size fits all thing? what else is in there? Can we meet?
If they want to get paid , they need to sell that catalog because I would certainly send xenu a check, oh I mean cc #, nope just some unmarked cash.. Do you think there is a Easter catalog as well with Easter egg colored e-meters? #scientology
@adiam7: I had been getting their junk mail at my old apt for a previous tenant. They are relentless with their mailings. I bet they have cleared out miles of rain forest with their mailings. The best part of moving was no more scientology junk mail. #scientology
@lil red: For you maybe, but what about me? Do you think I have any other way of finding out what the "it" item is in Scientology this season? You are so selfish to move, this is why you are nowhere on the bridge #scientology
The difference between Scientology and most mainstream religion is that most mainstream religion doesn't promise you anything temporal in exchange for your good will or dollars. Spirituality and a happy afterlife are the goals, and though they do ask for support, no one is asked to bankrupt themselves in order to do it.
Also, the involvement of an employer does indeed make the problem worse. As others have noted, employee rights are near-sacred in France, but even here that shit won't fly.
@Wannabeer: You know, Santayana said if you fail to remember the Big X then you are doomed to repeat the early days of border radio. Dr Brinkley would raise the Lazarus libido of fools by means of inserting goat glands into the scrotum, starting about 1918, and he has the reputation as probably the most prolific serial killer in America. This is why the DEA finally was able to force him out of the country (Repugnants who whine of too much gumint have memory troubles approaching dementia), and he continued the march over such as XERF, fifty thousand watts of power from Ciudad Acuna, Mexico, babies! Reverand Al and Brother Ike and many another made fortunes by sending a tape to the Big X with a nominal fee and my god how the money rolled in. You could buy a prayer cloth which would help you in court and bring health and wealth and power besides. All the Bakers and Swaggarts and Ortons and every proosperity hypochristian else were children of old Dr Brinkley, rest his soul, and they promised earthly rewards, every one.
I think maybe those outside the range of the Big X were mighty soft in their cynicism as a result. It's like being flabby because you don't work out. I don't think there were any Scientologists in my flatland prairie region, and we were uneducated hicks.
@Tremonius: True story: my wife from China, used to go to Chinese quacks, found by her sister, and cousin. We had terrible arguments. I almost left her over them. They still abound in China and Taiwan.
They're still around, preying on the edge of society. I went to Wikipedia and read about Brinkley. Never heard of him before. #scientology
We live in a hotbed of the paranormal. You could not empty a chamber pot from an upper floor without dousing a divine light healer or astral traveler. There is in the family one who has done nothing but "energy work" for decades, and rarely at that, and another who is a "Doctor of Chinese Medicine" plus acupuncture.
It's great power if you can get it, and it is a wonderful position in that you need show no goods nor service, sort of like Madoff, and the only clients have an investment in the scam. It's like a convention of used car dealers in Santa Barbara.
As happens to us all, there are symptoms which trouble us on occasion, and when these occur to either of the miracle workers, or indeed to at least two passing gurus of the sleight of mind, they all drop their karmic urges and rush to ER, same as any of us would.
The secret is not to confuse the dealer with the product. As a military vet with a bad discharge complained to me a long time ago, "They said I was a user! A user! I wadn't no user; I was a pusher!"
@Bulkington: See reference to "afterlife." Indulgences were for sale, but you could also earn them. And the point was it will help you later, your choice, Not: "you must do it now and your life will be better now." I don't agree with any of it, and right-wing evangelicals make me sick, but c'mon. We are talking something qualitatively different. #scientology
@Wannabeer: I was thinking of "electrometers" when I wrote that. It's the kind of blatant huxterism that even people with a sincere belief in their mystic alien origins should be embarrassed by. #scientology
While I hate Scientology as much as the next person, I don't know how it's any different than believing there's a man in the sky watching over us all and allowing "legitimate" churches all over the place to pressure The Dumbs to donate money lest they burn in hell. It's all a crock, they're all borderline crooks.
@Trixie from Toronto: I'm not a religious person, but I do believe that Christian religions only require you give "10% to God"... fair enough to support a community church. Scientology requires you to give an insipid amount of money in order to prove your level of spirituality, 10 levels in all, with the final one costing hundreds of thousands of dollars to take you out to the middle of the Pacific ocean and have your spiritual readings done on a boat. I'm pretty sure at that point it's just final indoctrination that they can't legally do within the borders of the United States. #scientology
@Trixie from Toronto: I agree the beliefs are equally ridiculous, but I've never been ripped off by Christianity. You only get pressured to donate if you go to church (and those people are asking for it). #scientology
@Rhymenocerous: True enough. Scientology is certainly more egregiously greedy. But there are off-shoot churches in the south that don't behave much better. And all those tele-evangelists are just as criminal. #scientology
@Trixie from Toronto: It's different because Scientology makes claims about what the money is going to that are demonstrably false. They measure "stress" and "mental energy" (actually, they don't measure anything), then claim that this money can improve your mental energy, when it manifestly can't.
Churches don't ask for tithing so that you won't go to hell--you can get into heaven without tithing. They ask for tithes so that you can support the church.
In many cases, advancement in the Scientology religion is directly tied to the amount of money that you pay into it--something that is impossible for most churches anyway, but also illegal for non-profits like that in the US. #scientology
@Trixie from Toronto: Though, it is true that Christian churches in the US get away with a lot more than they legally should be getting away with.
On the other hand, so does Scientology. Those Christian churches probably don't get away with as much in France--which may be why those guys hate France so much. #scientology
@Trixie from Toronto: Aside from the cosmology, there are three key differences as far as I'm concerned:
1) Scientology successfully combines the confessional with a kind of wacked out psychotherapy, and a lie detector (err, "E-meter" reading "psychic" energy). From the get-go, they have the goods to extort $ from you.
2) No other modern religion has been as vigorous in conducting dirty tricks against its critics.
3) No other modern religion has been as vigorous in opposition to psychological sciences. #scientology
@Trixie from Toronto: Not that I'm a fan of Christianity, but I'm pretty sure they don't charge you to sit in their pews and take their communion... just make you feel like you should give something. And most people give whatever they feel is right. Even a lot of the churches that still believe in tithing don't enforce it anymore.
Scientology, on the other hand, preys on people who really don't have great lives and demand that they pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in order to complete the process. It's a scam, it's immoral, it should be illegal, and I think jail time for these assholes is far too good. Not to mention the fact that doing these things in the name of religion in order to scam even more people should earn them a nice warm spot in hell.
@Trixie from Toronto: Here's the difference: Scientology is the only "religion" on the planet that a) charges its members for basic religious services, and b) withholds its most fundamental beliefs from new members.
Other religions may recommend that you donate to charity, but they do not charge you a fee for basic services. You don't have to pay the priest before Mass. You don't have to pay before daily prayers in a Mosque. Certain services sometimes traditionally involve a nominal fee (I think you sometimes pay the Mohel for performing a bris), but that's about it. Encouraging philanthropy is very, very different from literally charging fees for everything, especially when that fee is exorbitant.
Second, Scientology withholds the fundamental belief (Xenu et. al.) from new members. You must proceed pretty far along, and pay them quite a bit of money, before being told about that. Imagine if the Catholic Church didn't tell believers that Jesus was God until they'd progressed far enough in the Sacraments. Or if Islam didn't explain Muhammad's role as a prophet. These are the fundamental beliefs of these religions, but Scientology withholds it from some of its followers. That's not how true religions operate.
I understand that many people distrust organized religions, but conflating them with a dangerous cult like Scientology is just dishonest. #scientology
@Trixie from Toronto: I kinda ranted about this before..other religions made up wacky shit before science, and the institutions persist because of their significance in our social and cultural lives...Scientology came out of LRon's ass in the 20thC, when people should know better, and instead of promoting values that are supposed to appeal to a larger existence, they pretty much only focus on self-help "Don't do this because it's the right thing to do, or because you'll help somebody, do it because you'll make more money." #scientology
@Trixie from Toronto: I kinda ranted about this before..other religions made up wacky shit before science, and the institutions persist because of their significance in our social and cultural lives...Scientology came out of LRon's ass in the 20thC, when people should know better, and instead of promoting values that are supposed to appeal to a larger existence, they pretty much only focus on self-help "Don't do this because it's the right thing to do, or because you'll help somebody, do it because you'll make more money." #scientology
@Trixie from Toronto: I think you are missing a huge part of the picture. There is extreme pressure on people to buy more and more services. This happens in person. The people applying the pressure are right in front of you, coercing you. This can involve pressuring you to borrow money for courses, from family and friends, running up your credit cards, getting a second mortgage....Does a televangelist do that? #scientology
@braak: Try and float an operation today based upon a wafer and Mogen David which magically converts into the - not semblance, not symbol, but actual - body and blood of a long-dead (if he ever indeed lived) carpenter. And let it be known by encyclicals that your followers are required to believe that and many more obvious phantasms.
Oh, did I mention, six members of the formerly Supereme Court are followers of that scary cult?
On that account, Scientology is like Palin, a mindless joke. #scientology
@Tremonius: I'm not arguing about the relative plausibility of the belief structure, as it's purely irrelevant in the modern US context regarding religious institutions.
The US Government does not make judgments about the context of the religion, only the religion's behavior with regards to its finances. #scientology
@braak: Well, they waded into a cult shop in Waco one fine year, and they recently voided some marriages of children to a guru of a mormon sect in Texas, and they have apparently attained the sanity to stop these sociopaths who would allow their children to die in order to establish their own credulous creepy cred in crackpot hypochristian cures. For every Jim and Tammy Fae, there are several scary Jim Jones jihadists out there, and they're dangerous. #scientology
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There are a million reasons why Scientology is ridiculous, but this is patently absurd, offensive, and blatant in its elitism and lack of integrity. If one were seriously interested in becoming a member and devoting their lives to Scientology, but could not afford to take even the most basic of courses, would they be turned away at their initial consultation? Would they be squeezed for whatever they - or their family - had of value? Under what grounds will they find as a reason to deny someone admission, as surely someone cannot join if they cannot afford to be a member? Only the wealthy can afford to be swindled out of this much money in the first place. #scientology
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Enjoy!
[www.timesonline.co.uk] #scientology
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There really is a sucker born every minute. #scientology
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[www.ramtha.com] #scientology
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Seriously, fuck the Neiman Christmas catalog, I need to see this shit. Can you pleaaaaaase post it somewhere, how many colors does it come in? Are we talking primal colors or does it get it funky? Is there a sleeve like for iPods? How big is it? Are there different e-meters or a one size fits all thing? what else is in there? Can we meet?
If they want to get paid , they need to sell that catalog because I would certainly send xenu a check, oh I mean cc #, nope just some unmarked cash.. Do you think there is a Easter catalog as well with Easter egg colored e-meters? #scientology
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Also, the involvement of an employer does indeed make the problem worse. As others have noted, employee rights are near-sacred in France, but even here that shit won't fly.
Vive la France, baby. #scientology
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I think maybe those outside the range of the Big X were mighty soft in their cynicism as a result. It's like being flabby because you don't work out. I don't think there were any Scientologists in my flatland prairie region, and we were uneducated hicks.
10/27/09
They're still around, preying on the edge of society. I went to Wikipedia and read about Brinkley. Never heard of him before. #scientology
10/27/09
We live in a hotbed of the paranormal. You could not empty a chamber pot from an upper floor without dousing a divine light healer or astral traveler. There is in the family one who has done nothing but "energy work" for decades, and rarely at that, and another who is a "Doctor of Chinese Medicine" plus acupuncture.
It's great power if you can get it, and it is a wonderful position in that you need show no goods nor service, sort of like Madoff, and the only clients have an investment in the scam. It's like a convention of used car dealers in Santa Barbara.
As happens to us all, there are symptoms which trouble us on occasion, and when these occur to either of the miracle workers, or indeed to at least two passing gurus of the sleight of mind, they all drop their karmic urges and rush to ER, same as any of us would.
The secret is not to confuse the dealer with the product. As a military vet with a bad discharge complained to me a long time ago, "They said I was a user! A user! I wadn't no user; I was a pusher!"
Pride, and then the foil. #scientology
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Churches don't ask for tithing so that you won't go to hell--you can get into heaven without tithing. They ask for tithes so that you can support the church.
In many cases, advancement in the Scientology religion is directly tied to the amount of money that you pay into it--something that is impossible for most churches anyway, but also illegal for non-profits like that in the US. #scientology
10/27/09
On the other hand, so does Scientology. Those Christian churches probably don't get away with as much in France--which may be why those guys hate France so much. #scientology
10/27/09
1) Scientology successfully combines the confessional with a kind of wacked out psychotherapy, and a lie detector (err, "E-meter" reading "psychic" energy). From the get-go, they have the goods to extort $ from you.
2) No other modern religion has been as vigorous in conducting dirty tricks against its critics.
3) No other modern religion has been as vigorous in opposition to psychological sciences. #scientology
10/27/09
Scientology, on the other hand, preys on people who really don't have great lives and demand that they pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in order to complete the process. It's a scam, it's immoral, it should be illegal, and I think jail time for these assholes is far too good. Not to mention the fact that doing these things in the name of religion in order to scam even more people should earn them a nice warm spot in hell.
10/27/09
Other religions may recommend that you donate to charity, but they do not charge you a fee for basic services. You don't have to pay the priest before Mass. You don't have to pay before daily prayers in a Mosque. Certain services sometimes traditionally involve a nominal fee (I think you sometimes pay the Mohel for performing a bris), but that's about it. Encouraging philanthropy is very, very different from literally charging fees for everything, especially when that fee is exorbitant.
Second, Scientology withholds the fundamental belief (Xenu et. al.) from new members. You must proceed pretty far along, and pay them quite a bit of money, before being told about that. Imagine if the Catholic Church didn't tell believers that Jesus was God until they'd progressed far enough in the Sacraments. Or if Islam didn't explain Muhammad's role as a prophet. These are the fundamental beliefs of these religions, but Scientology withholds it from some of its followers. That's not how true religions operate.
I understand that many people distrust organized religions, but conflating them with a dangerous cult like Scientology is just dishonest. #scientology
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Oh, did I mention, six members of the formerly Supereme Court are followers of that scary cult?
On that account, Scientology is like Palin, a mindless joke. #scientology
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The US Government does not make judgments about the context of the religion, only the religion's behavior with regards to its finances. #scientology
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Dude, they decimated the Church, it's part of their proud heritage. You're not in the USA anymore. #scientology
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Doing my best to stay away from all things related to Scientology hasn't really helped me learn much about Scientology, I'll admit. #scientology
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Eliminating special treatment of religion -- tax breaks, exemption from workplace rules -- would be another good step. #scientology
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