kityglitr

I am a white woman, but I have grown up in northern CA my whole life. So we tend to have this whole "hey guys, lets all get together and smoke a bowl and reach out to everyone and end racism and save the world" etc etc mentality. Not saying this is absolutely true for everyone in CA, but I sure didn't grow up in the wealthiest areas by far (Oakland, for one), and most of my friends these days are are not white.

In the last year I moved to NYC and was pretty hugely shocked at the apparent racism everywhere. I still find it interesting that there seems to be much more racism in a city where everyone has to ride the same trains together and witness all socioeconomic levels every day.

Now that I've made some friendships with white people (really white) in my adult years, it truly is astounding to see the level of fear and racism they hold. Maybe growing up in a diverse community makes me, as a whitey, better able to handle these issues? I don't know. But I just don't understand how some people are so afraid of others... ignorance, I guess.

schmalerie

DoboshGonzo

Ms.Smalls

pvt_trip

pvt_trip

Once again you've made a statement based on your apparently limited understanding of people. Because the "non-white" people I hang with aren't afraid of black people any more than any other group of people.

I'm only suggesting that you shouldn't make blanket statements based on whom you feel menaced by. You may have been menaced by black people. But because you've been menaced by black people doesn't prove that black people are doing most of the menacing.

It's not about political correctness. You said that most of the menacing adults in New York happen to be black. My argument is that you have no basis for this other than your own limited experience.

Plenty of black folks I know feel that whites are doing the menacing. That's based on their limited personal experience. I think you're both wrong.

I do agree with you that race factors into the discussion regarding menacing behavior in New York, but I would argue that race has at least as much to do with who feels menaced (and why) as it does with who's doing the menacing.

In my limited personal experience in the city, I've witnessed at least as much menacing behavior from whites as blacks. What does that tell you? Perhaps we define "menacing" differently. Maybe because I've been a teacher in an urban setting--predominantly black students--I see obnoxiousness where others might see menacing. I don't know. Like I said earlier, this discussion just saddens me.

I guess I should give Gawker its blog back. Thanks for reading...

pvt_trip

TheUpMyAssPlayers

You could say that the moral of the story is that teenagers are scary idiots, regardless of race. You could also say that my persistent fear of skinhead chicks afterward was a form of prejudice. Make of it what you will, but I don't think it's unnatural for people to have a visceral reaction when they see someone similar to another person who has hurt or threatened them.

TWSS

And the name is topsy, not dude.

topsy

Listen, I gotta return to work, however, this is what I want to say:

No, black people do not scare me any more than they scare most non-black New Yorkers.

That is to say more than is warranted.

Which is to say that dealing with out of control teens WHO FREQUENTLY HAPPEN TO BE BLACK is impaired or prevented because of non-black people's very fear of, or discomfort in confronting, black people.

And OBVIOUSLY, there exists menacing behavior everywhere in the world...duh, that asshole who shot up the mall in Omaha was white, look at Columbine, look at the majority of missing/murdered wife cases, look at Nazis and White Supremacist groups, yadda, yadda, yadda...

But this is not the point...and it is not whether blacks, white, purples or zebra-colored people are more violent than others.

The point is that in NYC, race factors into the issue of menacing public behavior and complicates efforts to deal with it.

bungalowbabe

Black people appear to scare you. I can't explain that because I don't know you. I've been to Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia, most of Western Europe, and many states in the U.S. I can tell you that menacing behavior, douchebaggery, tomfoolery, and ignorance are spread throughout all populations. Even educated populations. Even in New York. Open your eyes.

pvt_trip

If your posting actually meant to convey that it is the ACT of calling people vermin that LEADS to their becoming Nazis, then I take back the charge the anti-Semitism...however, I still find it specious to make a link between criticizing people (black, white or otherwise) who are guilty of menacing behavior and totally innocent people who were killed because of some wacked out and evil ideology.

Bottom line: Do you live in this town? Do you want to see an end to teen terrorism? Do you have any good ideas?

I do. My first suggestion is to take all traffic cops off the beat for one week and send them to NYC's underworld, to patrol the subway system and crack down on hoodlums. Have Bloomberg announce a new program calling for public decorum. Identify the rules of reasonable behavior. Punish offenders. Create a subway print ad campaign announcing this program. Enforce laws. Punish the guilty.

Give our subways and streets back to us and stop empowering monsters.

See...I didn't say wild animals, though, of course, that is what I was thinking.

bungalowbabe

topsy

topsy

Would savage barbarians better suit you? Because that is what violently assualting someone is. Savage and barbaric.

I love how people set up what they are going to say with something like "I'm not blaming the victim but.." and then go on to say something completely assinine and stupid.

Violently approaching someone is wrong. Period. End of story.

Lalaboy

Let's see..."Calling people animals or 'vermin' leads to concentration camps."

Really? You mean...about 6 million Jews died because they called, uh, Nazis vermin?

That explains it. It never really made sense to me why my people died in such large numbers. Esp the 1.5 million little children.

But sidestepping your own racism...

No..I'm not calling out of control BLACK kids animals...I am calling out of control KIDS wild animals.

And yes, I am raising the obviously too-hot-to-handle question of where race fits it to this issue.

But if you want, you can spin the question itself as racist...and do nothing about it the problem of our teen terrorism.

Between spewing really disturbing anti-Semitic sentiments, of course.

bungalowbabe

topsy

"The night Max wore his wolf suit, and made mischief of one kind..and another, his mother called him Wild Thing..."

That would be the English equivalent of "vilde chayah," which connotes people who are out of control. Sendak based his classic book, Where the Wild Things Are, on his own childhood. The Wild Things are his weird older relatives. And "Wild Thing" is the English of "vilde chayah," which he was likely called by his mother when he was acting wild.

It is an absolutely great term, applied by Jewish parents to their out of control kids over the centuries and across continents.

Are you inferring that it is racist to call out-of-control kids "wild animals?"

Let's be real...these kids are a major problem. Is it a race issue? I don't know and it is an uncomfortable question to ask but surely we are not so fragile that we cannot raise it.

But really, and much more importantly, how do we wrest our subways and streets back from thuggish teens?

bungalowbabe

topsy

Those girls were wrong. Completely and totally wrong and should be punished. But it has nothing to do with them being black. They're fucking kids and unfortunately these days kids are out of control. But why is it that when shit like this happens it's okay to say 'well, you know how THEY are'. A white boy just shot up a mall in fucking OMAHA. Anyone who has been paying attention to the news in the last few years would be perfectly justified in being terrified of young white males, because you never know when 'one of them' will go off.

Like I said, kids today are out of control. I'm not blaming the victim but is it possible that this guy believed that his position as a white male gave him some kind of superiority over these 'black lesbian thugs'. If he did think that, that was a thought wasted. Strength is all that matters. Who can do what to whom. George Bush is a great example of that. Oh wait, he's white.

topsy

What would Aadou Diallo say? What would Abner Louima say?

The relationship between the police and the people they protect and serve is a two-way street. Go read some of Bob Herbert's columns in the NYT if you want to get another perspective on the relationship between black and brown young people on the one hand and the police on the other. I'm not saying that Herbert has it completely right, but I can tell you that you are so far from having cited a "glaringly obvious" fact about New York that you are indeed part of the problem. Try seeing things from another point of view. That's not being politically correct. That's actually trying to think about how we solve problems.

Race relations, crime, and human behavior are so much more complicated than our discourse reflects.

pvt_trip

I'm a black man from Dayton, Ohio. I love New York and its diversity and its people and its energy. But this video--and the reaction to it by the well-educated and probably highly intelligent Gawker crowd--depresses me.

There are so many people in this city with Ivy League educations who vacation to places like Vietnam and eat at the finest restaurants and have the best taste in film, fashion, and literature who also don't have a fucking clue about what it means to be an American. And I don't mean that in the American flag on the lapel way. I mean that in a "do you even know what it means to see people outside of your socioeconomic comfort zone as people?" kind of way.

A few things I've learned along the way:

1.) The kids on that train were fucking wrong. Doesn't take a genius to know that.

2.) Kids doing stupid, violent things is not the exclusive province of black kids or poor kids. This type of behavior has nothing to do with race. If you've been anywhere in this country and truly engaged with people as people and talked to people and paid attention to people, you would know that you could find exactly this type of behavior on a street like Xenia Avenue in East Dayton, Ohio. It's predominantly white. But the important point is that it's predominantly an unpleasant street on which to live. Most of the folks who live on that street are good folks, but then there are the knuckleheads...

3.) I am that angry black man that so many of you seem to be afraid of. I shoved a guy on a crowded train recently. And he fell into another group of people. And I instantly regretted it. And if you had stepped onto the train and seen me shove this guy you would have thought (correctly) that I was way out of line. But you wouldn't have gotten the whole story. You would have missed the part where this guy threw a shoulder into my wife because he thought he could get away with it because he thought she was riding alone. I was wrong. But a motherfucker who throws his shoulder into my wife is going to hear from me. (Side note: Once he realized that my wife and I were together, and that I was pissed, and that I could have pummeled him into oblivion, he wanted to "reason.") My point is that we don't know the whole story about this video, but it seems that people are using their limited understanding and experiences with black people to fill in a lot of blanks. A lot of your reactions could be summed up with an "Oh, there THEY go again..."

It's uncool of me to admit that this video depresses me. These girls don't know the damage they do with their behavior. But it's not just their behavior that depresses me. It's the ignorant, sometimes racist, often childish reaction to it that really depresses me.

Someone earlier mentioned Duke Ellington. Ellington once said that THE people, are my people. How many of us can say that?

pvt_trip

The cops, as it turns out, are just as scared of the kidz as your average white person. A couple of months ago, I got out of the train at W96th Street and marched up to two cute little Latina copettes on the platform. I told them about the students on the train I had just alighted...how they were essentially terrorizing the entire car. Listening sympathetically, the copettes rolled their eyes and said that they were stationed on the platform to keep order but the kids weren't afraid of them.

No kidding. Even I wouldn't be afraid of short, plump little girl cops with dimples.

Then again...I've heard teen girls tell male cops to "shut the fuck up" in this town!

And by teen girls I mean black teen girls and by tall male cops I mean tall black male cops.

So, is it a race issue? I don't know, though it is hard to ignore the fact that most of the menacing, misbehaving teens are, indeed, black, just as most of the menacing adults in this town happen to be black. I'm up near Columbia and we get security notices in our lobby about local crimes all the time. Guess what color the perps happen to be? Could it be the same guy time and again?

It is racist to notice this glaringly obvious fact about life in NYC? You'd have to be blind not to. But what does it mean?

And what do we do about it?

bungalowbabe

EnviousJuno

move to a different car, read your paper deeply do whatever, just don't give these kids, or anyone an excuse.

i thought new yorkers were street smart?

mattychicago

I don't understand the chatter because he's "white". How do you now? I think the dude should not have interacted with the teens. When I see a group of teenagers, no matter the race, I cross the street.

Now while I'm not blaming the "victim", the video started off with a scream match between the victim and the kids. What provoked this? Kids might taunt you but they generally don't swing on adults in trains for eye contact.

The woman on the train was not afraid of the teenagers and even tried to help him. And, guess what, shewas white. The kids didn't attempt to fight her or punch her because she was "white". How is this racial?

Teenagers suck. We know this.

However, everyone knows not to stand up as if to it a teenager because it's not as if you can really HIT them if you're an adult. I do think he should know better than to engage with studid teenagers or to make a move as if to hit them.

Penscribe

I think MurphysLaw had it right - the best defense is to zone out with the iPod so completely that you look either mildly retarded or crazy. If that method is compromised then you just piss your pants to really lock into character.

fiveinchtaint

If it were some other group, we'd be hearing a hell of a lot more about it.

[www.usatoday.com]

Lalaboy

As a side note...(When it comes to race, if you're in the minority, alone and in a practically deserted train car, know that if you react, respond, or initiate confrontation ,chances are you will be a target. There is still too much racial frustration and inequality for your comments to seen as innocuous and not racially motivated (sadly, even if you are right in your assessment). If your plan was not to engage in a racial dispute, you may find yourself there regardless.)

Spirit Fingers

BritneysBaldHoohoo

SarahHeartburn

I ended up getting into this "discussion" with a group of young females who just so happened to be black. After them screaming, throwing shit at each other for 20 minutes and leaving their garbage from McDs on the A trian I was on, they got up to get off at the next stop and left an entire seat covered in shit, I asked them to bring their garbage with them. I was so pissed and it was a stupid move, but after they are started yelling at me, mostly bitch, cracker and other things against my apparent rich whiteness, I noticed a woman my mom's age with them - obviously a mother. She turned to me and said I was lucky they had to get off cause she would have beat me down. I mean thats some postive reinforcement.

spielarama

Hez

ambitious

Pope John Peeps II

Goodbye, Commenters!

Goodbye, Commenters!

It's usually better to avoid a fight, but in face vs eye, eye usually wins.

Goodbye, Commenters!

He's not to blame but . . . he's the one with lumps. Learn a lesson, why don't you.

ambitious

PlainGirl

Who is the saintly girl with the glasses who tries to save his ass? Is she a christmas miracle that didn't quite pan out?

relunctant entity

artynimue1

Chief Wahoo

Everyone write Cait!

DorothyMantooth

Chief Wahoo

KingOfSnake

cassandra

Happy Holidays!

PandoraSpocks

usmeekly

usaidit

Except the guns. Police ALWAYS have guns. Kids, on the other hand, sometimes have hairbrushes, wallets, iPods, or cell phones, and 36 shots later it's "Sorry! But we were acting within police guidelines."

It's okay to be rowdy, it's okay to be a teenager. It's okay to be all of those things people find so threatening. That threatening look is almost always defensive. I look at people on the A train all the time and never have a problem--I simply treat people with respect.

And when trouble does come all of a sudden, unprovoked, with no way to avoid it, I pick the biggest, meanest attacker and go straight for the eyes. It's a good way to find out how much they have invested in the fight. But you can't really fight 3 or 4 people, of course, only defend yourself or scare them off.

Goodbye, Commenters!

There's a lot of blaming the victim goin' on here. Is this an NYC thing? or an America thing? a post 9/11 thing? Are you all secretly hating yourselves?

Pope John Peeps II

Mediahohoho

Goodbye, Commenters!

cassandra

Goodbye, Commenters!

PandoraSpocks

collegecallgirl

Mediahohoho

cassandra

Mediahohoho

That said, this guy must have been the biggest dumbass in the world. First: could he not tell ON SIGHT that at least one was a raging angry lesbian? What's wrong with men on the subway these days?

cassandra

cockfightbarmitzvah

IHateWhatYouHaveOn

missdelite

And JFP didn't really deserve all the shit he got. Everyone knows a guy like him. I do. He's a lousy guy, but he didn't really do anything outrageous to deserve vilification. He was just run-of-the-mill dumb. And there are lots of those around.

Pope John Peeps II

janine

Mediahohoho

I remember you defending john fitzgerald page also, are you some sort of douchebag protectionist? I'm all for it. Y'all should start a reserve on Staten Island.

janine

spazandmojo

spazandmojo

MisterHippity

Malegirdle

princeCapsaicin

Pope John Peeps II

collegecallgirl

Moff

Pope John Peeps II

MisterHippity

Pope John Peeps II

Everybody on line, and five or six cafeteria ladies, all just stood and watched. Nobody did anything or said anything. It was like, "In such a situation, no action or statement is possible. Everyone must awkwardly try to ignore this situation until it's over."

When they were done punching me in the stomach, I just paid for my lunch and went on my merry way.

I just felt like sharing that. I hadn't thought of it in years, until this video jogged my memory.

MisterHippity

veeelchop

Pope John Peeps II

janine

janine

bifteck-frites

Glossina Glossinidae

Bos'un's Mate

luckik30

With regard to the limp wristed frat boy's "I got beat the fuck up by girls" moment...

Noting the apparent girldoucheness of all involved, I think what we witnessed was some sort of gang related/lesbian/"You gotta' get jumped in ho!" type of beat down.

Spirit Fingers

RosemarysBabyDaddy

RosemarysBabyDaddy

I always love to hear how hard it must be to be a teased white kid and the lack of economic resources you must have faced. small violin's broken.

BottomOnTop

collegecallgirl

There's something so courageous about settling scores one on one. Thats why I like boxing so much. Consequently, there's something so horribly corrupt about how these decadent thugs somehow feel braver at having beaten someone up in swarm. You feel brave because you're the hyenas rather than the lioness? Because you can't fight someone on your own? That's sad, baby. Sad.

Pope John Peeps II

Bos'un's Mate

CaptainFantastic

This from a dude reading a book about Klimt. True story.

Love this town.

Sigerson

PimpMyCouch

Chief Wahoo

Nesbiteme

Sarcastro

SarahHeartburn

Nope, a very old one, indeed. Call your local House o' Domination and ask for "race play." Various Dommes of Color have it either on their list of faves or forbiddens.

kat

Some of My Best Friends Are People

fileunder

Bring back sword canes, man. Or metal canes with weighted ends. Victorian England had the right idea.

Pope John Peeps II

Cookie Guggleman

Bos'un's Mate

MurphysLaw

Moff

PandoraSpocks

Queen of the Passive Aggressives

stew

Itsjustcatnip

Fritzpeterson

BettyCrocker

Queen of the Passive Aggressives

fiveinchtaint

HeyThereKiller

One_Nation_Under_Dog

Her awesome powers:
- Listens to iPod!
- Thinks about helping out!
- Is really sorry about everything!
- Is really sorry she wasted all that time when she could have been helping but now it's too late!
- Shoulder to cry on!
- Crying with you!

Take that, Green Lantern!

Goodbye, Commenters!

StarlingSlipstream

ratherbesleeping

Moff

maevemealone

Not like the gawkers in Spain, eh?

AndIAmTellingYou

During the summer, I had some teenage girls (just like the ones in the video) talking some kind of shit about me being white and "400 years of slavery" and how they should kick my ass. Lovely!

These kind of racial incidents happen all the fucking time.

Reminded me it's time to carry!

PlainGirl

collegecallgirl

Pope John Peeps II

mitchel_stevens

Bos'un's Mate

Mediahohoho

Moff

BK_KT

Clarence Rosario

In other news, Times Square is overrun by tourists, and Penn Station is busy at 5:30pm.

eastvillageidiot

And that's why Choire had to up and take a week off.

Goodbye, Commenters!

DorothyZbornak