[www.guardian.co.uk]

rantersparadise

The Real JR

rantersparadise

"Just why Obama found a home in this particular church with this particular pastor remains a very real question to me."

Like I said before, I think it was a calculated move on has part, naiveness and a sense of disillusion.

We just need to concentrate on McCain.

rantersparadise

The way I see it, Kerry was never that happy being number 2 and had very diff opinions to Clinton. You have to do what you have to do, to get to were you want.

And I trust Obama. Why? Because he has too much to loose.

rantersparadise

hageesheart

Obama honestly scares me because I believe in him. I think he is the wisest leader in this race by a mile. I haven't ever cared this much if someone is elected or not, so its a scary place to be in for the first time. The more I believe in him, the more scared I get that America isn't ready for him or that I'll somehow get let down. These aren't rational fears, I know, but when you actually care what happens it is such a different ballgame.

Obama has my vote, but boy, if I get let down I don't know if I could ever trust any politician ever.

SlickaNicka

"Since I'm guessing you dismiss every person who thinks stuff about your faith straight away etc. ..."

I dismiss them straight away in the same way I dismiss straight away all other bigots and racists.

Just why Obama found a home in this particular church with this particular pastor remains a very real question to me.

I don't buy the excuse that he wanted "black street cred" because, had he wanted that, there are churches such as the African Methodist Episcopal Church, which were founded by and for African-Americans and enjoy great respect in the African-American community.

The United Church of Christ, the denomination to which Rev. Wright's church belongs, is a *white* denomination. (This irony is lost entirely on the U.S. media who are almost entirely ignorant of American religions.)

I'm not sure what I'll do. We'll see how all this plays out.

Hamud Ibn Hamud

VoxPopuli

cassandra

geerays

rantersparadise

... but I'm not sure he is naive. I think he senses where the masses want the country to go, and he's trying to be/become symbolic of it. (I don't think this counts as an argument of him being "all words/no substance" and blabla: he's the first politician in my lifetime I've ever given a shit about, and if he's trying, on purpose, to use the zeitgeist for good, all the better. Artists get to be accidental successes, politicians generally need a more strategic mindset.)

It's a mean system, but. I swear we're not as dumb as we think we are. Or, I hope.

hageesheart

cassandra

geerays

KiKiRiKi

rantersparadise

So what should he do? Since I'm guessing you dismiss every person who thinks stuff about your faith straight away etc. I'm guessing this pastor was a 'father figure' too. But, no....what do you suggest?

rantersparadise

HiredGoons

"Unfortunately, it's hard to see the Obama for the Obamania sometimes."

Best comment I've ever heard about Obama and his phenomenon.

Super_Kitten

tittitwister

@SinisterRouge on Notice!: I so wish you would have stopped with "short cliff"
in your MoDo immolation. But I guess that's why they call you SinisterRouge instead of "Fluffy Friendly Verde" or something.

"And it's sad because we're the left...we're supposed to be better."

Oh, missed the LeBron discussion, did you?

@if_i_only_had_a_heart: I'm hoping you already sent in your OpEd. Because there are a bunch of people with attention spans so short they don't remember what happened last week, let alone in 2004.

Rooo sez BISH PLZ

[flickr.com]
[flickr.com]

InsomniaJones

I don't think you ought to compromise your love for your faith in order to support a particular candidate.

Would you be doing, that, though?

hageesheart

"...But maybe I'm just used to loving folk that also have qualities that make me uncomfortable. ..."

There's somewhat of a difference between tolerating a cranky racist uncle and admiring a pastor who flies with Farrakhan to visit Libya just a few years before Libyans blow up a Pan Am flight heading to NYC.

Do I think Obama believes Judaism a "gutter religion," or Jews subhuman? Nope. But it disappoints and depresses me that he's great pals with someone who lauds a nutcase who expresses those views.

I'm having a difficult time trying to understand why I should compromise my considerable love for my faith simply in order to support a presidential candidate.

Hamud Ibn Hamud

... I'm sitting here, thinking, trying to figure out how you could read the speech that way.

And I am still baffled. But maybe I'm just used to loving folk that also have qualities that make me uncomfortable. But I kinda thought that was one of the basic human experiences.

hageesheart

I guess our points end there. I think Hils would do a great job and is more then capable. What pushed it for me was the speech and also remembering that America is a multi cultural nation that needs to move, move with the times and oh, yeah, the fact that I personally would be so chilled after 9/11. Those fundamentalists-hence the name are irrational. completely.

So I guess considering that Hils and BAm have a pretty similar policy thing going and Kerry who is with Bam, was also with Clinton-no major diff apart from one's a black guy and the other is a white woman.

With all those in mind, I go with the black dude. But hey as long as you don't believe in McCains crap, you're all good and Hils is just as capable.

rantersparadise

rantersparadise

John Carney

vulturesquadron

Most depressing: Emailed my parents about the speech, how mature and eloquent it was, and my mom wrote back with the talking point about how he threw his white grandmother under the bus.

McCain won't be so bad, I guess?

Steverino

World opinion: we trade with Europe and Asia, that isn't going to stop. Our national profile abroad doesn't count for much in places that are already allies, and our enemies think we're weak

WRT your comment to Hamad, he doesn't
need to pander to African American voters that much, they probably won't vote for Hillary over him. Maybe as a junior politician it helped inculcate him in the Chicago African-American political community, in which case it's kind of crass

KiKiRiKi

Yeah. you haven't answered all the questions that's why.

I asked you if you thought having Killary a clinton was such a good idea after all the shit that's happened in your country these past 10 years and the fact that, erm, the world hates you?

Do you not think that it might be a good idea to start with a fresh start? Possibly with someone whose past background and ethnicity ACTUALLY represents what America is? A multi cultural country?

No, lets bring in a Clinton (again cause he LOVED Iran), a white waspish person who represents to the rest of the world that, ahem?

rantersparadise

trescharmant

How much shall we bet that Obama's mother ancestry is Jewish?

Can't you see that he has to play a game? Wright is in tune with the 'blacks' in a BIG way, he needs them on side to be on side with them. Although he is half black, the dude admittedly isn't that down with the Afro Americans although he wants to be-hence the wife etc being black and living in America.

All I'm saying is think about it as what it is- a game. A game that Obama had more stacked against him then ANY of his opponents. Constantly having to prove this or that. I mean, America has never been ready for a Black man. He's had to be super calculated.

In your hearts of hearts do you REALLY not see were his is coming from with this speech?

What can he do? The blacks are so twisted up on self frigging hate that they are like 'crabs in a barrel'. The only way he could reach out to them or even understand them is through religion.

I think growing up as he did and the way he was-he always had 'president of the US' in his sights. You don't get here by just waking up and wishing after a few years(10/15 or so) and decide you want to be prez.

?

rantersparadise

KiKiRiKi

"When his enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli" to visit Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, Mr. Wright recalled, "with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell."

It's very difficult to determine precisely to whom Rev. Wright was sticking it when he made that remark.

What's also mysterious is that Rev. Wright fails to mention that only four years after his visit with Farrakhan to Tripoli, Pan Am Flight 103 from LHR blew up over Lockerbie, Scotland. In 1991, 3 Libyan nationals, including a Libyan intelligence officer, were fingered for the attack.

I think it'd be far to say that at the time Wright and Farrakhan visited Tripoli, the Libyan government's attitude toward the U.S. was less than benign.

Somehow, Obama's white grandmother doesn't seem particularly relevant to the broader questions posed by Obama's great affection for Rev. Wright.

As a pathetically earnest Jew who supported Obama and even gave money to his campaign, as a pathetically earnest Jew who belongs to the pathetically earnest rote middle-class Jewish intelligentsia that has traditionally supported African-American causes, I can't but feel betrayed by Obama's support for a man who cavorts with known Jew-haters locally and flies halfway across the world to meet others.

Hamud Ibn Hamud

They are all necessary. The cunt won't quit.

BitchSetMeUp

doolittle

Argh! Am swamped with hope! Hey Obama-goons, am off, back to my cubicle. Don't be so hard on Red State Obama though (GWB), he's stewarded the economy pretty good and I admire him for staying the course on Iraq. It's important

KiKiRiKi

doolittle

vulturesquadron

Race is a strawman for real issues like poverty and class.

Anyway back to work

KiKiRiKi

And they know it - that's why "Jim"McCain and Rev. Huckabee have come out in support of Obama, b/c they know if you scrutinize the words from the pulpits of our nation you'll uncover a frothy brew of hatred and contempt...

also
@Hippity: right on.

jackvinyl

d00d what u said

if_i_only_had_a_heart

vulturesquadron

racist hate churches: pat roberts, liberty university ... st mccain's bff hagee ... do you really not know or r u just pretending

if_i_only_had_a_heart

zomg i hope the r's are paying u to b their butt boy or girl as the case may be cuz u have all the standard talking points lies down perfectly

the war in iraq is a tragedy and a disaster for this country and for that one

the r's have wreaked havoc on the ground there and across the economy here

profits are privatized and risks are socialized

if ur not a millionaire, the r's are actively working against your interests

if_i_only_had_a_heart

Any hoot, sitting here getting forwarded all manner of emails from Pennsylvanian friends along the lines of "My NRA-member, Republican grandfather/father-in-law/uncle/etc just changed parties for the primary and sent money to Obama..."

I remain hopeful. Whatever, we all know this is America's election to lose.

ObtuseIntolerant

rantersparadise

Spirit Fingers

I just think that after what's happened to you guys, you need to be a little smarter about who's gonna be your next pres. A waspish white old man who is mates with Bush, ain't gonna make you any sweeter to the rest of the world OR those fundamentalists.

Like I said previously, I'm just praaaaaaaaying that the we/the UK stop following you guys like pathetic poodles. Cause man, I can't take this Al Qaeda crap anymore..it's really crap here because we were your allies...

rantersparadise

Spirit Fingers

KiKiRiKi

drugman

Rantmagazine (a real magazine?): Homosexuality may well end up being seen as segregation was but for now a good % of the US population thinks they don't deserve to marry. I disagree, but for now it's not the same thing as racism

KiKiRiKi

There has been decent progress towards stability and with Sunnis and Shi'a hardliners slowly getting on board (Anbar Awakening, Muqtda al-Sadr etc) there's a chance for a peace. Today the Iraqi Assembly has endorsed provincial elections, bringing Sunnis into the govt. War isn't over, but there's actual hope now

KiKiRiKi

@KiKiRiKi: Despite what you may believe, Jihadists and KKK members have the power to instill fear and take lives...wait, they've done that for generations. This one pastor is saying the same thing pastors in the black community have been saying for decades, and has it launched a legion of murders? I think not, only those who speak in fabrications can get the fanatical together to cause death and pain. Speaking the truth about racism brought about by the hands of non-whites in this country, however "antiquated", hasn't started some kind of jihading revolt or created domestic terrorism supposedly justified by religion (much like the KKK did throughout the south). At most, there were speeches, marches, sit ins and non-violent protest.

You sound worried; perhaps you should read a textbook on this subject. History is always a good place to start when one is at a loss for words.

Spirit Fingers

rantersparadise

and thanks to A DISMAL SCIENCE for "I Have A Carefully Constructed, Politically Advantageous Dream" - is it cynicism when it's true?

suzyO

KiKiRiKi

chunkstyle

the republicans seem to get away just fine with attending hate churches, attending hate colleges, and appearing on hate radio

so what is your point?

reckless is starting a war of choice and letting it go on for 5 years; that's reckless

if_i_only_had_a_heart

KiKiRiKi

rantersparadise

Exactly. Someone is speaking the truth. This is what people don't want to see of here which has thus shown in the reaction from the media and various Hill supporters-whom to me only support her cause she's white/Clinton and not Obama, not cause she is good.

rantersparadise

You don't think it's somewhat reckless for a politician to associate with someone like that?

Crazy to see how much of an effect charismatic authority still has! I mean ladies and deviants, is the man really that good looking?

KiKiRiKi

Yes, it's good to infuse Obama's politics with Naughty By Nature's eloquence.

Spirit Fingers

rantersparadise

crooked_teeth

Ummwhat

Spirit Fingers

No shit.
Since when does the Current Occupant's frightening lack of relevant experience (which has worked out soooooo freaking well) make it okay for the next guy to not have any either?
Christ, I miss Al Gore.

City_Dater

yes

this has been another edition of simple answers to simple questions

if_i_only_had_a_heart

drugman

Are they utter moron fuckwads?

Koreanish

Dusty in the Wind

Spirit Fingers

And is that paragraph the only part you read? Were you fed it by Fox News in their "condensed version" of the speech or or something?

How convenient to omit this paragraph, which occured just before the one yuou quoted:

"For the African-American community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of American life. But it also means binding our particular grievances - for better health care, and better schools, and better jobs - to the larger aspirations of all Americans -- the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man whose been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family. And it means taking full responsibility for own lives - by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny."

But that doesn't fit with what you wanted him to say, did it? It's so much easier to cherry-pick portions of his speech out of context, and to try to distort what he said to match your own view of what you want him to be, isn't it?

I know ... politics is so much easier when you do that. You don't have to tax your brain by thinking to much.

MisterHippity

SinisterRouge

read, think, decide. his accomplishments are there too if you can stand the two seconds it takes to search.

If you voted for Bush in 2000 AND 2004, your opinions will be taken with a grain of salt.

reults may vary.

mightymouse

SinisterRouge

SuperBien

i agree with you, but i think it's the framing that he's doing that's new and important and has a chance to stop the old white people from saying, "i'm not racist" and stop the old black people from saying,"they're all racist" and move the country to a place where the past and its effects are understood by all, and the hope of the future is everyone's hope

maybe it is not impossible for white people to be educated about history

maybe it is not impossible for black people to fully emerge from 400 years of slavery and jim crow

speaking from my own perspective of course

if_i_only_had_a_heart

If Procopius is to be believed, there may be more in common between Hillary and Theodora than we think...

Corydon

It's very frustrating because it shouldn't have been this complicated. She deserves/deserved this based on her merit but after these tactics...hmmm...it made me think may be it may not be all that different after Bush.

Obv better but that maybe we need some new blood?

rantersparadise

ADismalScience

Spirit Fingers

MartyPants

SinisterRouge

SinisterRouge

Helman

crooked_teeth

Why did they do that?

I think that because it was such a crappy debate that no one really wanted to speak effectively about gay marriage. Also, politics is a game and you have to play your cards well.

If Obama had said something then-it would have scared white middle America and stunted his campaign. So he had to be cunning. Gain people behind him and when it matters-SAY SOMETHING. Which he did, at the best platform, that black church. That was impressive and effective.

rantersparadise

i'd pay for the download

if_i_only_had_a_heart

Phyllis Nefler

TheHonJudgeSmails

d00d i luv u.

if_i_only_had_a_heart

SuperBien

i seriously think there's a third path, for gays and straights alike: "wedding" in a church can be constrained by any crazy rules a random religion chooses to enforce, and people can join or not join; "marriage license" is something that governments confer, and it brings all the same financial and social rights to everyone ... so if the rightwing crazy churches don't want to have "weddings" for people they don't like, fine, whatever, there's no point in fighting that fight, but the governemnt can bestow a marriage license on any 2 people. just take the crazies right out of the fight

when i got married in tn, straight traditional deal, it infuriated me that i had to (1) get a marriage license and (2) have a ceremony performed by either clergy or justice of the peace. do away with (2) as a requirement and just offer (1) to anyone who shows up

if_i_only_had_a_heart

But don't you think the people who hated you before etc, will still do with Hilary in power?

I don't know-I've always been a BIG Hilary fun for as long as I can remember but got really upset as a black person when she started being racist. She was better then that.

I also think that the people behind Obama are pretty solid. It's not like HE will make all the decisions. No president does.

rantersparadise

karion

I should state that I am not by nature a politically-minded sort, and have never before actually wanted a candidate for their own merits, as opposed to just feeling compelled to unvote for their rival. But, this guy, I really want as president. There it is, and I guess we probably get back to snarking about Britney's latest purchase of Cheetos by now, eh?

WideStanceRomancer

Where is Betty Crocker when you need him?

lawyergay

and what is on george bush's resume?

-- failed businessman
-- failed president

if_i_only_had_a_heart

SinisterRouge

8Millionth

i actually think that experience is irrelevant for the presidency, as there is nothing else like it: what matters is intelligence, eagerness to learn, humility in the face of challenges, and temprament, which includes responding to challenges by wisely taking the counsel of everyone with a dog in the fight and building an answer based on history and a vision of the future

or, just be the opposite of the ignorant degenerate princeling from connecticut (NOT texas, which is all a sham) and everything will be so much better; it's not really that hard

if_i_only_had_a_heart

I'm not objecting to the quote, only to the notion that it wasn't pandering or that it was something new.

John Carney

Sorry I'm not in favor of Clinton or McCain. I may even be slightly leaning toward Obama because he's articulated saner views on Iraq than I've heard from his rivals. I'm just a critic of Obamania.

John Carney

SinisterRouge

Wonder if Bear Stearns shareholders are going to reject the deal.

bittergreen

He doesn't have much of a resume because he was very busy promoting a book and beginning his presidental campaign...

Politics as usual, people. Style over substance every time.

City_Dater

scarletmenace

Mike_Jahn

To quote from the great man himself:

"In the white community, the path to a more perfect union means acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination - and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past - are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds - by investing in our schools and our communities; by enforcing our civil rights laws and ensuring fairness in our criminal justice system; by providing this generation with ladders of opportunity that were unavailable for previous generations. It requires all Americans to realize that your dreams do not have to come at the expense of my dreams; that investing in the health, welfare, and education of black and brown and white children will ultimately help all of America prosper."

John Carney

I'm really not even questioning Obama's experience or foreign policy background. (Because, in my mind, being a POW -- while tragic -- doesn't make anyone any more of an expert on foreign policy than anyone else.) I'm just wondering, what HAS Obama been doing for the past few years. Or do we just give him a pass on the Sword in the Stone clause?

And Hills doesn't get a pass either. If she had 35 years of experience, she wouldn't have to declare it every five minutes.

crooked_teeth

That was OK, though.

8Millionth

@rantmagazine: C'mon now the Clinton years weren't exactly awful. No need to group them in there with that evil fucker Bush.

SinisterRouge

TheHonJudgeSmails

Can we still say "cunny" at least? We can? Good!

Cunny cunny cunny!!

MisterHippity

discuss

if_i_only_had_a_heart

... and george bush accomplished what?

seriously ... let's keep in mind the frame; when republican radio blowhards say obama has little foreign policy experience, let's remind them that the governor of texas had never left the country before he stole the white house the first time

if_i_only_had_a_heart

I'm guessing you're still trying to sway people to vote for Hilary or McCain? Because you don't want people to buy this Obama dude?

I really want to discuss McCain instead of why this man is so much worse then 8 years you had of Bush and Clinton before.

rantersparadise

if_i_only_had_a_heart

I do think it odd, however, that his lone accomplishment during his time in congress is one vote he cast against the Iraq war. Little else. When you apply for a job or college, don't they ask, 'what did you do during these years? what were your accomplishments? what responsibilities did you have?' Obama's congressional resume is remarkably barren. The experience issue makes no difference to me, honestly. But, by all accounts, he went out of his way to not ruffle any feathers in Congress.

And I can't help but wonder: if this issue with the pastor hadn't come to light, would we have been deprived of Obama's need to address an important issue.

crooked_teeth

SinisterRouge

But why don't you just write your own speech containing everything you expected him to say? That's pretty much how most people approach politics anyway.

MisterHippity

here's what made me think that obama can harness forces to change this country back to something resembling its ideals, rather than the lying thieving sideshow of incompetents and crooks it has become under the boy king:

"Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan Coalition. Politicians routinely exploited fears of crime for their own electoral ends...white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze - a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many..."

This time we want to talk about the shuttered mills that once provided a decent life for men and women of every race, and the homes for sale that once belonged to Americans from every religion, every region, every walk of life. This time we want to talk about the fact that the real problem is not that someone who doesn't look like you might take your job; it's that the corporation you work for will ship it overseas for nothing more than a profit.

if_i_only_had_a_heart

MisterHippity

SinisterRouge

John Carney

trescharmant

vulturesquadron

vulturesquadron

WideStanceRomancer

lastsinglestanding

Is there a moratorium on nitpicking before 11AM ET?

vulturesquadron

SinisterRouge

vulturesquadron

In any case, he wasn't putting her down, so anyone who would be upset about that is missing the point.

What a great speech. I heard a repeat of it on public radio last night and I hoped that people would really hear it instead of taking snippets of it out of context. Sigh.

VoxPopuli

The Real JR

drunkexpatwriter

Here's the link, [www.towleroad.com]

rantersparadise

SinisterRouge

Gawker commenters are cool because they find ways to disparage the deserving cleverly. Anybody can toss around a few expletives.

kthxbai

scarletmenace

what you said, 100 percent

obama is the first politician in my adult life who is not campaigning for office by running against poor people, who is not busy convincing poor people that their problems are caused by even poorer people, and who appeals to our better angels rather than to despair

he is working to change the frame and change the story

that is a huge, important, generational shift

he is the anti reagan: channeling charisma and intelligence into promises of better things, rather than the destruction of other human beings

i started out favoring edwards in this campaign, because i saw him as the only one interested in afflicting the comfortable and comforting the afflicted;