Dorothy

Dorothy

ascq

Road_Rash

UnstableMabel

SheWalkedWithAZombie

SheWalkedWithAZombie

oh i'm all for calling bullshit on experts but every single argument i've ever read for a link between autism and vaccination has quite obviously mistaken correlation for causation.

There are a lot of serious, committed researchers -- not beholden to drug companies -- who are doing work on autism. Parents need something to blame -- or to explain -- but vaccines are a scapegoat with potentially dangerous ramifications for public health.

i'd rather call bullshit on a hysterical, anti-intellectual, anti-science newsmedia than, like, peer-reviewed medical research.

Especially at a time when so many people in this country don't believe in evolution and science ignorance is basically encouraged in the Bush administration.

SheWalkedWithAZombie

Physicians are forever having to deal with patients whose shopping-mall CAT scan revealed, say, a "lesion" on a kidney, and, goddamnit, these patients want a biopsy done pronto.

These patients are all too often convinced that "watchful waiting" and "decision tree" are just fancy ways of disguising insurance carrier greed and they as much distrust any explanation of how performing a biopsy entails risks that may outweigh possible benefit.

Hamud Ibn Hamud

Interestingly, I've NEVER had Strep or the Croup.

slimceagirl

I don't know enough to say that the vaccines did this to him, but I SAW it myself, & something may have been triggered by the vaccines.

There are probably many factors/causes, just as there are different shades/forms of autism, but lets not count anything out, either.

No matter who she is or what she has done, at least she cares passionately about the matter, & media attention to this growing epidemic is a good thing.

ingabelle

drugman

drugman

Carol Gardens

Some of My Best Friends Are People

This restores sanity: [scienceblogs.com]

Harvey Birdman

+ Watch video

drugman

holdenfunk

weazel

Twerpsichore

Helman

I feel for Jenny Mccarthy, but don't you think that she may be just a little bit biased by her own experiences? I saw an interview where she said that after she heard of the possible link she was amazed about how much evidence she found on the internet. That is the problem.

With things like Web MD, and all of the other medical information on the internet there is bound to be misinformation. People think reading up on some website qualifies them in the same way a doctor is educated. In large, most doctors want what is best for their patient, and your 20 minutes of googling you child's ailment does not make you an expert.

notthatpopular

drugman

mainesqueeze

BettyFinn

drugman

Mike_Jahn

drugman

Mike_Jahn

Mike_Jahn

The elder George Bush sat on Lilly's board of directors in the 1970s, and White House Budget Director Mitch Daniels was a Lilly executive. Lilly CEO Sidney Taurel was named by President George W. Bush to the Homeland Security Advisory Council. In November 2002, Congress passed a provision, tucked into a spending measure for homeland security, to indemnify Eli Lilly from lawsuits and require families to seek compensation through the federally funded Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. It was repealed in February 2003 after public outcry. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) still hopes to pass a similar bill. Congressional consideration for Eli Lilly makes sense: In the 2002 election cycle, the company gave more than $1.5 million to federal candidates, with three quarters to Republicans, making it the fourth-biggest giver in the pharmaceutical industry, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. In the current election cycle, the company already has given close to $230,000 (67 percent to Republicans) to federal candidates.

the Librarian

Lilly was cited in lawsuits filed against the manufacturers of diethylstilbestrol (DES), a drug prescribed to women in the 1940s and 1950s to prevent miscarriages. The company was ordered to pay $400,000 in damages from DES even though the complications that developed were not known at the time.

Oraflex, the American version of Benoxaprofen, was withdrawn from the market in 1982, just one month after gaining FDA approval. A British medical journal found five cases of death due to jaundice in patients taking the drug and the FDA accused Lilly of suppressing unfavorable research findings. In 1985, the U.S. Justice Department filed criminal charges against the company and Dr. William Ian H. Shedden. Lilly pleaded guilty to 25 criminal counts and paid a $25,000 fine.

the Librarian

the Librarian

the Librarian

drugman

Most problems are solved with a theory first, "anecdotal experience" leads to exploration of scientific processes, which leads to many cures and vaccines.

Markers are present and something triggers the autism: could be a variety of factors which cause it. This topic is interchangeable with a discussion about MS.

IngenueLu

chicklit

Some vaccines are more appropriate for third world countries, like that for rotavirus, but they are put on a child's schedule for "convenience". Read on for that.

This calls to mind several theorists who believe that the real culprit might not be thimersol-containing vaccines, but rather these newer "multivalent" vaccines--that is, vaccines that target more than one disease. They are multiple-jab affairs and quite powerful. Some parents choose to get these as individual jabs, allowing a bit more time between jabs, and,in theory, not overwhelming their babies' growing immune systems.

We have cause for concern over vaccines in general because while Western European children get around 4 or 5 jabs by the time they're 6 (depends upon the country and parent--they aren't universally required, at least as not rigidly as they are here), American children have about 20 jabs by that age.

The way big pharma markets the health burden is by telling Pediatricians that parents will miss less work, and demand fewer "panic" calls from them if they vaccinate the entire recommended schedule. Some Pediatricians in the country won't consider your child a patient unless you agree to all of them.

Whether the vaccines themselves cause autism, or simply aggravate genetic patterns in certain, vulnerable children is not clear yet, so mapping our sequence, at this point, would be useless. But why allow both the pharmaceutical companies and the insurance industries to lobby/bully the government into enforcing vaccination if it is so compellingly safe and necessary? These vaccinations are not cheap, and not always covered by insurance, so we know that this isn't just some mission of goodwill on the part of pediatricians, whose income is based solely on what deal they make with managed care.

ergo, it's healthy to question! Good on Jenny! Can't believe I typed that.

thatgirlinnewyork

Carol Gardens

Carol Gardens

drugman

You might read about crazies out there but in this case she is not advocating for no vaccines.

IngenueLu

drugman

I can't wait to have my own bespoke syndrome so that I can: (a) obsessively place blame on others for tenuous causal linkages to my own shortcomings, (b) take drugs of dubious efficacy that will give rise to further claims of victimization, and (c) stop trying to be better.

Also, drugman, shouldn't you be busy making every new baby cuter?

vulturesquadron

the Librarian

drugman

allyzay

My father was a doctor. Specialized in cardiology and internal medicine. Never sued for malpractice or other liability. I relied on him for virtually all my medical needs and questions. And I had a lot of questions. Always. Thankfully, he appreciated and respected that about me.

There aren't many other doctors I trust today. He believed the same.

nyobserver

the Librarian

drugman

Point is, no conspiracy, just business as usual.

Anyway, that was my morally responsible good deed for the day.

Bof

Were thimerasol THE etiological agent underlying autism, similar genetic studies would have revealed that genes responsible for de-toxifying this agent would prove to be bona fide risk factors for the disease. Read my earlier posts...there is no such evidence. Let's move on and fight autism with facts and understanding, not superstition and fear.

drugman

the Librarian

This is typical idiocy. Hans Asperger simply wasn't practicing and describing the trait clusters which became autism until 1938. It's not as though the disease didn't priorly exist for ages; this excellent doctor found the time to make a useful diagnosis of children who were priorly and tragically left to asylums at young ages, or discarded to the periphery of society to push a manure cart. So, honestly, think about how stupid the person who wrote the article looks when one considers simple, simple facts. I reserve ad hominem for people who double-deal and would leave fear and superstition floating in our midst.

drugman

McCheeburger

RE: Gardisil, etc- the thimerasol folks should expend their energy on religious nuts who unabashedly fight HPV limitation on the grounds that a little chaste-ness will win the day.

drugman

Fair play to you and-what you said.

@sharpeiboy: Tell your cat I think she's cute.

Calraigh

I sometimes wonder if we could get a rumor started that HPV causes permanent penis shrinkage, just to see if that would get more people behind that vaccine. Preventing women from getting cancer? Pshaw, they're hussies anyway, they deserve cancer. Prevent Jr's wee-wee from shriveling up? Those shots should be free!

mockingbird

drugman

richardmarxhatesmyhair

NIH is funded by the government.

Lobbyist from BigPharma, finds out Dr Doolittle is proposing a study that will test the link between their vaccines and Autism.

Politician gets call from lobbyist, "fix this and we donate to your campaign", politician then calls in favors to NIH, grant for research gets squashed.

Why is this considered a conspiracy? It happens every day.

If an ingredient in vaccines, in this case thimerosal, causes issues with a small percentage of the population which has a metabolism that is deficient in processing mercury-containing organic compounds, then I would say there is most-likely a link between the two, and thus reason to raise a shit-fit.

Bof

yourfriendandneighbor

@Helman: Sometimes, I wish we were the Netherlands and pre-mature euthanasia were acceptable. Outrageous, stupid assholes. Fuck.

drugman

the Librarian

??? Here's funny:

Q: What's the difference btween Michael Jackson and a grocery bag?
A: One is white and plastic and dangerous for small children to play with. And you can carry groceries in the other one.

I just feel like the punch line in yours is a little fuzzy, plus maybe you could make fun of famous people more.

stew

the Librarian

mockingbird

The sad part of this whole thing continues to be the complete lack of understanding as to the biologic underpinnings of a developmental delay that has basically exploded.

sassypants

ljnd2

My friend's five year old is "autism spectrum," but other than the fact that he just got potty trained, all I've heard from her about him makes me think he's just a weird, smart kid, no different from all the freakishly intelligent boys we went to school with who had low social skills. Now many of them would be classified as Asbergers, then they were just geeks and future validictorians.

mockingbird

JinxyMcDeath

So, vaccines, dangerous business, sometimes, for some people.

lionel-mandrake

Unlike Gawker at large, this whole post makes me sad. I'm a working geneticist (note the avatar name) and have a half-brother with Asperger's. There's more fear and false hope in McCarthy's presentation of the problem than in anything a drug company or doctor can do to you. We (in the first world) have the privilege to thoroughly investigate diseases which have always existed, and diagnose them so the afflicted can receive fair and helpful treatment. The genetic component of autism predisposition is large and incredibly complex, and I'm of the mind the increased cases reflects (appropriately) aggressive shift in diagnoses. It's a large, variegated public health problem that needs to be explored diligently and with utmost regard to empirical fact-finding. She's entitled to her pet hypotheses, but the medical community at large is rapidly excluding these possibilites, and facing up to the dauntingly complex and devastating disease spectrum that is autism. I'd prefer to be a brave, responsible critical thinker and attack the problem full-bore, uncomplicated by the whims and fantasies of passionate, but misinformed, bystanders. [Sad emoticon]

drugman

Helman

Mike_Jahn

I understand her passion about autism. However, she's not an "expert". I know a lot about autism too (unfortunately), but I wouldn't call myself an expert. We are concerned parents who want answers and to find a cure (if that's possible). But without absolute proof, I don't think you can adamantly say that autism is caused by vacines. I do, however, appreciate her using her fame to bring attention to the issue.

busyness

If I'm a fool for believing that, because the causes of Autism haven't been conclusively proved, I shouldn't rule out vaccinations, so fucking be it. I'm willing to admit that I've been influenced by what I've read about the connection. I've also gotten my kids vaccinated, albeit while sweating bullets watching those syringes plunge into their fat, little legs. Again, if that makes me crazy, guilty as charged.

Nard

McCheeburger

Sounds far more like lawyers than doctors, to me.

McCheeburger

TheRtHonPM

hamburgerhotdog

astrology -- bullshit

evolution is a "theory? -- bullshit; evolution is a hard, irrefuable fact.

vaccination causes autism -- bullshit

Now, don't let people tell you that autism rates rose since the spread in popularity of vaccination and think that there's causation. There's such as thing as definitions. Fifty years ago what we now call autism would be been termed mental illness. There also such a thing as ability to detect. Fifty years ago we wouldn't have been able to detect a lot of things we now call disease. An Asberger's Syndrome kid today is befined as being "on the spectrum" (autistic). Fifty years ago we'd say "oh, he has trouble relating to other people and sometmes he says something inappropriate."

There's also vested interest, and I ain't referring to drugcompanies. In NJ if you have a kid who is developmentally delayed but not autistic, the school
district will PUSH you to let him be classified as autistic, because the state funding for autistic children is WAY higher.

Finally, people like Jenny McCarthy who equate the validity of an argument with the volume with which it is spoken are bullshit.

Mike_Jahn

The point here is that your doctor very well *may* be an idiot. The same is true to varying degrees for everyone else who does stuff for your money.

You know what's more dangerous than vaccination? Letting a population lapse into the vector for known communicable diseases.

I absolutely hate these parents who spend their lives in some kind of pseudo-forensic recreation of the ultimate cause for their kid's irregularity. That's all time and energy that should have been spent on choosing capable doctors.

Also, does anyone think these parents would give a flying shit about this if their kid wasn't affected? Nope. Even if nine out ten babies were delivered with autism from the same hospital, as long as theirs is OK, noooooo problem.

vulturesquadron

sharpeiboy

This didn't crack me up very much. You need to say "douchebag" and "boobs" more. Or go for the cheap laugh and throw in "Jakob Lodwick."

stew

Nevertheless, the doctor I defended kept shaving his patients (breasts, actually) and they kept getting infections, etc. Long story short, he recently got his license revoked after screwing up about 50 people. Hooray!

Moral of the story? Doctors are narcissists.

JinxyMcDeath

Itsjustcatnip

stew

drugman

BrookeD

Juggernaut

In Other News...

Itsjustcatnip

nerdkiller

hamburgerhotdog

Dusty in the Wind

Bell County

minx

actorpull

Soup

Sassafras

FracturedAcetabulum

hamburgerhotdog

Moff

Moff

Also, does everybody here have the three marks on their upper arm that every single person under the age of 30 has in Ireland at least, from the BCG vaccination?Just curious..

Calraigh

hamburgerhotdog

I'm guessing it's all the pollution and shit in our environment plus people choosing to have birth later in life but I have no scientific support of this.

hamburgerhotdog

PickleTitsTurner

TheUSEFULfailure

CharlieSays

But, you know, getting any person on-air who wants to ask tough questions to the medical field, even yell a little bit, I got no problem with that. There's a lot to yell about.

KarenUhOh

if_i_only_had_a_heart

But seriously, hasn't pharma removed thimerosal (the mercury-based preservative that was suspected as a possible cause of autism and other neuro disorders) from most vaccines already?

TheUSEFULfailure

also, mercury in vaccines is just a bad idea

if_i_only_had_a_heart

After taking microbiology last semester and learning all the various ways you were likely to die before vaccines came about, let me tell you they were mighty unpleasant. Vaccines have done far more good than harm.

hamburgerhotdog

cyberpersephone

In July 1999, following a review of mercury-containing food and drugs, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) asked vaccine makers to remove thiomersal from vaccines as quickly as possible, and it was rapidly phased out of most U.S. and European vaccines.[5] The precautionary principle assumes that there is no harm in exercising caution even if it later turns out to be unwarranted, but this 1999 action sparked confusion and controversy that has diverted attention and resources away from other efforts to find the causes of autism.

Due to continued public concern, the Centers for Disease Control and the National Institutes of Health (NIH) asked the National Academy of Science's (NAS) Institute of Medicine (IOM) to establish an independent expert committee to review hypotheses about existing and emerging immunization safety concerns. In 2001 the committee reported:

"The committee concludes that although the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines could be associated with neurodevelopmental disorders is not established and rests on indirect and incomplete information, primarily from analogies with methylmercury and levels of maximum mercury exposure from vaccines given in children, the hypothesis is biologically plausible. The committee also concludes that the evidence is inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship between thimerosal exposures from childhood vaccines and the neurodevelopmental disorders of autism, ADHD, and speech or language delay."[11]

Sassafras

Sargasm

Spirit Fingers

Moff

I think the major point here is that nobody really fucking knows and might not want to point fingers at people who are trying to find out. I am not downplaying the horrible impact of autism, it is obvious and widespread. But just because parents `think' vaccines are the culprit here does not mean they are the cause. It doesn't mean they aren't either. It just means you might want to pay attention to the empirical evidence, or conduct studies yourself, before yelling at people who don't immediately confirm your gut feelings.

Dolomite

FracturedAcetabulum

Sure, corruption in research exists. Crap. Welcome to the real world, if you don't realize that. But citing anecdotal evidence for challenging an established medical practice is, in her words, bullshit. If she doesn't want to have them, fine. But when these diseases that have been controlled return, where will she be?

She does have nice tits, though.

FracturedAcetabulum

allyzay

Watch the new HBO documentary on Autism....pretty compelling.

nicepony

PickleTitsTurner

Oh, sure, blame it on the Jews.

ronbo

McCheeburger

My stepdaughter is profoundly autistic. Her parents tried all these alternative therapies when she was younger - "recovery" wasn't going to happen. Autism damages the brain cells and you can't get that back - you can build NEW neural pathways but you can't do much with damaged tissue. As for vaccines, most haven't contained mercury in 10 years; and in those 10 years the number of autistic kids has increased. It's clearly not vaccine-related.

ljnd2

But anyone who places blind faith in a "science" underwritten by one of the most profitable of global industries--that profits by having things its way--is every bit as deluded, and perhaps--depending on results of "further research"--more so.

KarenUhOh

stew

AuntPeniston

In every prestigious medical journal, authors are required to disclose all conflicts of interest, and when they don't, it's generally a scandal (e.g., the recent lung cancer study that was found to have been funded by an agency of cigarette companies).

Are you suggesting that's not enough?

TheRtHonPM

Dave J.

And maybe it's just me but when I look at my kids' pediatrician somehow I don't see a soulless tool of big pharma.

ronbo

mathnet

shiningstar

Moff

Pareene

tracyflick